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blakes7-d Digest				Volume 00 : Issue 55

Today's Topics:
	 [B7L] get me out
	 [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #54
	 [B7L] Way to GO
	 [B7L] Beautiful suffering
	 [B7L] Soul mates
	 Re: [B7L] New Mailing List
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Shots Fired
	 Re: Re [B7L]: 'Beautiful' suffering?
	 Re: [B7L] 'Beautiful' suffering
	 Re: [B7L] get me out
	 [B7L] Gan versus Cally
	 Re: [B7L] Soul mates
	 Re: Re [B7L]: 'Beautiful' suffering?
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Shots Fired
	 Re: [B7L] Soul mates
	 Re: [B7L] Neil (was New Mailing List)
	 [B7L] Liberator
	 Re: [B7L] Re: Beautiful suffering
	 Re: [B7L] Soul mates
	 Re: [B7L] Soul mates
	 [B7L] Shots fired

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 15:58:01 EST
From: VAZandri@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] get me out
Message-ID: <a2.14716ac.25ec3b59@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
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can you remove me sir?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 20:36:38 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Re: blakes7-d Digest V00 #54
Message-ID: <38BB3EC6.4EF0@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> But give me sweaty foul-mouthed kick-ass Action Bitches any day:)
> 
> Neil
> 
Neil, while they are kicking ass, they are making someone suffer. And
yet you still find them beautiful. :)
--Avona

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 20:44:54 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Way to GO
Message-ID: <38BB40B5.3830@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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> They all suffered ignominious deaths, accomplishing nothing.
> How would each of the B7 crew have preferred to die?
> 
> Blake: in battle of words with Avon
Accidentally stampeded to death by the hordes of free people running to
the voting booths for their first election.
> Avon: information overload makes his head explode
Old age. 
> Vila: tumble in and drown in a big brewers vat of soma
Also old age. Or dying of exhaustion.;)
> Cally: ascend to a higher plane of consciousness
Sounds like the best offer so far. I agree.
> Jenna: smothered in a big bear hug by Blake
> Travis: in a mutual strangulation death grip with Blake
Yup. 
> Dayna: in a mutual strangulation death grip with Servalan 
I don't think Servalan had the grip to make it mutual.Accidentally
impales herself on the arrow she shot Servalan to death with, while
doing her victory dance?
> Tarrant: doing daredevil loop de loop stunts in Scorpio
Sounds right.
> Soolin: in a shootout with herself, aka Games
Probably.
> Servalan: dressed to kill
And in a 'drinking game' with a vampire. Dying to live forever.
> 
> Pat
--Avona

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 20:53:31 -0700
From: Helen Krummenacker <avona@jps.net>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Beautiful suffering
Message-ID: <38BB42BB.3AC8@jps.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Iain, from your reply, it souds like you don't deny suffering can be
beautiful in some forms. You just dislike the phrase as applied to Avon
being rendered unconscious or bruised, etc. I can understand that. My
original comments were not meant to say that Avvon's Slavering
Syncophants enjoy it in the sense one enjoys Hamlet's soliloquys. But as
one of Avon's Sympathetic Kindred Spirits, I speak of his beautiful
suffering in terms of the volour of the unquenchable human spirit
against a hostile universe, the grace of the human form in expression,
even expressing reactions to terrible experiences. 
I suffer from a chronic pain condition and if I think of Avon resisting
a forced sleep or going through 5 days of prison and torture to reach a
higher goal, I can get out of bed in the morning a little easier.
--Avona

P.S. Okay, and he's cute in the closeups with his eyes closed. But only
because he looks so peaceful then. It's like when you watch someone you
like sleeping. It's not really kinky; everyone likes watching children
sleep.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 22:06:32 -0700
From: "Ellynne G." <rilliara@juno.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Soul mates
Message-ID: <20000228.220641.-254339.0.Rilliara@juno.com>
Content-Type: text/plain
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

If there's one term the English language would be better off without,
it's "soul mates." It's also been attacking me lately - even in B7!

I picked up a fantasy novel and read the blurp on the back about how two
mortal enemies (him a remorseless vampire, her a vampire slayer) decide
to ignore their differences because they're "soul mates."

I read an article in the paper about a woman who pretty much destroyed
the lives of everyone she came in contact with because she realized her
partner in crime was her "soul mate."

Then, I was looking through an otherwise all right B7 fanfic and found
one character explaining how she was no longer carrying the torch for
Avon because he and this other character were "soul mates."

Actually, the soul mate attack's been a bit heavier than the above
implies, but let me get to the point -

As near as I understand it, "soul mate" is some vague idea about this
perfect person waiting out there and, once you meet them, life is like
some perfect (and sappy) romance novel.  People who believe in them seem
to think being soul mates would justify running off with Jack the Ripper
and helping him escape prosecution. They also seem to think it would
justify helping Jack with any of his hobbies.

So, 1) much as some of us like Avon, can anyone seriously imagine any
relationship with him being some effortless bit of sunshine and rainbows?
 I myself can't imagine working with him for more than a week before some
kind of war broke out.  And, 2) can anyone imagine Avon ever buying into
a concept that justifies never arguing and going right along with doing
whatever the other person wants?

Maybe this is where beautiful suffering starts to come into the picture. 
Or just suffering.

Ellynne
________________________________________________________________
YOU'RE PAYING TOO MUCH FOR THE INTERNET!
Juno now offers FREE Internet Access!
Try it today - there's no risk!  For your FREE software, visit:
http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 19:41:11 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] New Mailing List
Message-ID: <38B9EE56.4CED7EBD@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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PatPat wrote:

> I shall, hencewith, answer my own question about why Michael started a
> new list: Gen X hasn't yet developed the patience to wade through Neil's
> long, literary thesis-quality essays on intergalactic politics. (And
> British labor laws.)

For which we may be duly thankful.

Mistral
--
"Who do you serve? And who do you trust?"
               --Galen, 'Crusade'

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 23:27:10 -0700
From: Penny Dreadful <pennydreadful@powersurfr.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Shots Fired
Message-Id: <4.1.20000225231825.00a09ee0@mail.powersurfr.com>
Message-Id: <4.1.20000225231825.00a09ee0@mail.powersurfr.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"

At 09:01 PM 25/02/00 -0700, Ellynne G. wrote:

>Ludello Heimerdinger Obermeier XXIII, as he was known

(And much much more...)

Ellynne, your comedic stylings leaves me speechless (in a good way), as
always. 
--
      For A Dread Time, Call Penny:
http://members.tripod.com/~Penny_Dreadful/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 14:34:16 EST
From: "J MacQueen" <j_macqueen@hotmail.com>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: Re [B7L]: 'Beautiful' suffering?
Message-ID: <20000228033416.82449.qmail@hotmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed

>From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
>On Sat, Feb 26, 2000 at 09:13:01PM -0000, Neil Faulkner wrote:
> > But give me sweaty foul-mouthed kick-ass Action Bitches any day:)
>Oh my.  Blake's 7 meets Alien...

Please, Kathryn, not after lunch...

Regards
Joanne
(a little too relaxed after two weeks, or she would've checked where she was 
sending to first. Sorry, Kathryn)


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2000 20:43:51 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] 'Beautiful' suffering
Message-ID: <38B9FD06.8BF559D4@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Neil Faulkner wrote:

> Pat P (who proudly claims to be perverted) wrote:
> > Avon is so superior in so many ways: smart, handsome, in control - he
> > seems totally out of reach of we mere mortals.
>
> Surely that all depends on how you define 'superior'.  You could cite the
> same three qualities (well, maybe not 'handsome') as evidence of him being a
> total jerk you wouldn't want to touch with gloves on.

You prefer your heroes stupid and out of control? Odd. Or
perhaps you're interpreting Pat's comments as 'smartass and
controlling' whereas I'm reading 'intelligent and self-controlled.'

Mistral
--
"Who do you serve? And who do you trust?"
               --Galen, 'Crusade'

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2000 21:35:59 +0000
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] get me out
Message-ID: <g1ZrmWA$ouu4EwPe@jajones.demon.co.uk>

In message <a2.14716ac.25ec3b59@aol.com>, VAZandri@aol.com writes
>can you remove me sir?
>
The FAQ is at http://www.lysator.liu.se/~calle/b7list/FAQ.html
and also at Judith Proctor's website. Extract, censored to avoid
confusing the bot, replace * with u:


How do I s*bscribe?  


Send a mail with a subject line of s*bscribe to 
blakes7-request@lysator.liu.se. 

How do I uns*bscribe?  


Send a mail with a subject line of uns*bscribe to 
blakes7-request@lysator.liu.se. 

Is there a digest version?  


Yes. To get on it, send a mail with a subject line of s*bscribe to
blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se. To get off it, send a mail with a
subject line of uns*bscribe to blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se. 

-- 
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
        The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 07:25:43 +1100
From: Kathryn Andersen <kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
To: "Blake's 7 list" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Gan versus Cally
Message-ID: <20000229072542.E6250@welkin.apana.org.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

Someone on the newbie list declared that they would rather Cally have
left than Gan.  Such fighting words could not go unanswered, so I did,
and figured after all that work, I'd toss it in here too.

Top ten reasons why Cally should stay rather than Gan:

10. Cally is prettier than Gan.
9. Cally is a better medic.
8. Cally has just as much a conscience as Gan.
7. Telepaths can do more than the head-blind.
6. Gung-ho rebels are more interesting than gentle giants.
5. Aliens add a unique perspective.
4. There are never enough strong female characters.
3. Mystical proverbs are more interesting than exposition.
2. Cally can defend herself.
and
1. Avon isn't going to fall in love with Gan.

I now humbly hand back my oak leaves to Judith, having obviously
forfieted them - but nobody slams my Cally!

Kathryn Andersen
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
 Blake:  Prognostication?
 Voice:  Rapid deterioration to terminal condition.
 Blake:  Recommendation.
 Voice:  Immediate investagative surgery.
  Vila:  So. If we don't get him treatment, he'll be a vegetable.
 Jenna:  Or die.			(Blake's 7: Breakdown [A10])
-- 
 _--_|\	    | Kathryn Andersen		<kat@welkin.apana.org.au>
/      \    | 		http://home.connexus.net.au/~kat
\_.--.*/    | #include "standard/disclaimer.h"
      v	    |
------------| Melbourne -> Victoria -> Australia -> Southern Hemisphere
Maranatha!  |	-> Earth -> Sol -> Milky Way Galaxy -> Universe

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 07:54:35 -0000
From: "Alison Page" <alison@alisonpage.demon.co.uk>
To: <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Soul mates
Message-ID: <000a01bf828a$67924480$ca8edec2@pre-installedco>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

I liked the irritability of this post :-) plus I agree with it, which helps


>If there's one term the English language would be better off without,
>it's "soul mates." It's also been attacking me lately - even in B7!
>

- It's lazy writing. Imagine that your affection / lust / fascination with a
person allows you to transcend problems you have with their beliefs or
lifestyle or appearance or whatever. Surely this could happen - but how hard
it would be to write, how difficult to make it realistic. 'Soul mates' is a
cute phrase that lets you sidestep all that problem.

- Love is not enough. Loving someone doesn't render all other moral
obligations and concerns suddenly void. This is done well in B7 itself (the
whole Anna thing for example). At the very most you get conflicted - you
don't just stop being who you were before. You still hunt the vampire.

- How permanent is this anyway? In real life it is too easy to feel that a
relationship is permanent, particularly when you are young. I associate the
slightly hysterical over-emotion of the whole soul-mate thing with teenage
infatuation, here today, gone tomorrow.

>So, 1) much as some of us like Avon, can anyone seriously imagine any
>relationship with him being some effortless bit of sunshine and rainbows?

Actually introverted grumpy so-and-so's are one of the types of people I
like most.

2) can anyone imagine Avon ever buying into
>a concept that justifies never arguing and going right along with doing
>whatever the other person wants?


No, but I bet you could bamboozle him into it :-)

Alison

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 07:11:08 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Re [B7L]: 'Beautiful' suffering?
Message-ID: <001401bf8284$7a744f40$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
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Julia wrote
> <N.Faulkner@tesco.net> writes
> >But give me sweaty foul-mouthed kick-ass Action Bitches any day:)
> >
> Bit like the one I was watching in Time Squad on UK Gold this morning:-)

Not nearly sweaty enough.  And not foul-mouthed at all.  But she'll do:)

Sally Knyvette, at Deliverance 98, cited the Ripleyesque action woman as a
positive female role model, and when I queried that on the basis that it was
ultimately just another sexist male fantasy, she agreed that yes, it was,
but it was a hell of a lot better than most of the others.

The trouble with action bitches is that however positive a depiction of
women they may be (though the positivity of the values they embody is
questionable within a gender-free context), they cannot escape being a
vicarious expression of male doubts over the authenticity of the machismo
myth.  While the Stallones and Schwarzeneggers shrug off all the punishment
and lumber on without flinching, the Ripleys (being female) can go through
the entire range of appropriate human responses yet still carry on
regardless.  This is echoed in 'Time Squad', since Jenna's fear is very
evident as she stalks the aliens down the Liberator's corridors - a fear
that would not be evident in Blake or Avon if they were in her position.
This means that women who take a 'positive' role in this kind of action
drama become a vehicle of identification for male viewers who know that if
they were there, they would be scared shitless (if it was me, I would
probably have hidden in a cupboard or something).  And this is, basically,
exploitative.  It's getting women to carry the can for men.

Authentic male responses to dangerous situations seem to be confined to
'serious' action dramas, such as realistic war films (Platoon, The Thin Red
Line, etc).  Within the context of the primarily escapist, the machismo
myth still rules.

Neil

"I am not a man, I am a free number."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:22:02 -0600
From: Susan Moore <Susan.Moore@uni.edu>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Shots Fired
Message-id: <38BBD609.274AAB5E@uni.edu>
Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit

Ellynne,

This was wonderful.  And I'm sure that the documentary on that day in Dalla
that will be airing on The Learning Channel next month will perpetuate the
cover-up of Travis's involvement in the whole situation.

The truth is (way) out there.

Susan M.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 10:10:44 EST
From: VulcanXYZ@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Soul mates
Message-ID: <dc.188d0ff.25ed3b74@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Alison responded to this:
<< 2) can anyone imagine Avon ever buying into
 >a concept that justifies never arguing and going right along with doing
 >whatever the other person wants?
 
by saying: 
< No, but I bet you could bamboozle him into it :-) 

At first, I was going to respond by saying that Avon was too rational to ever 
be "bamboozled," but then I thought of Anna.  It seems that Anna pretty much 
had Avon around her little finger.  So, what do you think...would Avon have 
considered Anna to be his soul mate (before the cellar scene and all)??

Gail

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:26:54 -0800
From: mistral@ptinet.net
To: B7 List <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Neil (was New Mailing List)
Message-ID: <38BBF34D.72B3A443@ptinet.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
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Ann Basart wrote:

> >PatPat wrote:
> >
> >> Gen X hasn't yet developed the patience to wade through Neil's
> >> long, literary thesis-quality essays on intergalactic politics. (And
> >> British labor laws.)
> >
> And Mistral answered
> >For which we may be duly thankful.
>
> Well, perhaps. But he certainly has had some thought-provoking and delicious
> comments on topics more directly related to B7. (But then, I'm far from Gen
> X.)

:) I don't follow you, Ann. Have I inadvertently given the impression
that I was complaining about Neil's essays? I wasn't. They're rather
amusing. But don't tell Neil, we wouldn't want him to get the big head.

Mistral
--
"Who do you serve? And who do you trust?"
               --Galen, 'Crusade'

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 13:21:01 EST
From: JEB31538@cs.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: [B7L] Liberator
Message-ID: <48.2381a55.25ed680d@cs.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello,

Michael Bailey asked where he could get a model of the Liberator.  There is 
one on Ebay right now.  And models come up on Ebay periodically.  Also, other 
fans have models for sale now and then.   It turns out that if you wait for 
months and months and don't find one, that you can always contact me.  I have 
a spare model kit of the 9 inch Liberator and several spare Corgis which are 
about 2 inches long and sometimes hard to get.  These are not cheap,  
however.  I'd give Ebay a couple months to see what turns up.

JEB31538@cs.com
Joyce Bowen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 07:34:06 -0000
From: "Neil Faulkner" <N.Faulkner@tesco.net>
To: "b7" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Beautiful suffering
Message-ID: <000a01bf82e6$2425a8c0$e535fea9@neilfaulkner>
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="iso-8859-1"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Iain wrote
> I am a Big Fan of tragedy. However, I don't think tragedy is the same
> thing as 'beautiful suffering' in this context at all. Tragedy has a
> spitirual power which comes from the intensity of the tragic hero's
> struggle against an inevitable bad end. Its profundity is fundamentally
> religious.

Possibly, in the sense that it posits the possibility of transcending the
human condition.  And I suppose such transcendence might be considered
'beautiful', but only through its juxtaposition to the suffering, which is
anything but beautiful.

A diamond shines all the brighter for being stuck in a cowpat.

> As far as an innocent like me can tell, the enjoyment of Avon's
> suffering is rather less spiritual and rather more erotic.

I doubt if it's primarily erotic, or necessarily erotic at all.  I would
expect any eroticism derived from Avon's suffering to be a by-product of the
reversal of socially prescribed power relations.  Making Avon vulnerable
wouldn't so much generate an erotic response as magnify a pre-existing one,
as a result of the shift in relative empowerment.  Or something.

Neil

"I am not a man, I am a free number."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 08:04:34 +0000
From: Julia Jones <julia.lysator@jajones.demon.co.uk>
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Cc: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Soul mates
Message-ID: <78i9UAAS23u4Ewdy@jajones.demon.co.uk>

In message <20000228.220641.-254339.0.Rilliara@juno.com>, Ellynne G.
<rilliara@juno.com> writes
>As near as I understand it, "soul mate" is some vague idea about this
>perfect person waiting out there and, once you meet them, life is like
>some perfect (and sappy) romance novel.  People who believe in them seem
>to think being soul mates would justify running off with Jack the Ripper
>and helping him escape prosecution. They also seem to think it would
>justify helping Jack with any of his hobbies.
>
Some people seem to think that in real life. The Hindley/Brady soap
opera is back in the headlines again:-(
-- 
Julia Jones
"Don't philosophise with me, you electronic moron!"
        The Turing test - as interpreted by Kerr Avon.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 29 Feb 2000 15:07:51 EST
From: Pherber@aol.com
To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se
Subject: Re: [B7L] Soul mates
Message-ID: <c.1ec6205.25ed8117@aol.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

In a message dated 2/29/00 8:12:48 AM Mountain Standard Time, 
VulcanXYZ@aol.com writes:

<< It seems that Anna pretty much 
 had Avon around her little finger.  So, what do you think...would Avon have 
 considered Anna to be his soul mate (before the cellar scene and all)??
  >>
Highly doubtful, IMHO.  To me, the term "soul mates" implies *unconditional* 
acceptance of the partner and all of their personal attributes - Avon is both 
too rational and too emotionally damaged to accept *anyone* unconditionally.  

Nina

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2000 08:07:47 +1100 
From: Andrew Williams <AWilliams@daikin.com.au>
To: "'blakes7@lysator.liu.se'" <blakes7@lysator.liu.se>
Subject: [B7L] Shots fired
Message-ID: <4103E830BB67D211877400A0247B635E15ED5A@dialup49.actonline.com.au>
Content-Type: text/plain

I sent this on Saturday, but I haven't seen it hit the list, so here it is
again:
("What do you mean, 'again'?!?" - Mike, TYO)


> From the Mary Ridge interview in B7 monthly no. 10, page 27:
> 
> "I wanted the other principals, less Blake of course, to go down with no
> sign of blood.  To all intents and purpose [sic], they could have been
> brought down by stun guns and not killed at all.  I also wanted to take
> their falling in slow motion, as if it were happening in their brain....
> 
> "The clue to what happened is on the soundtrack.  The first shot fired was
> from Avon's gun.  The next three shots were from Federation guns - then
> the next two were Avon's again....It was always my intention to suggest to
> the viewers that Avon could well have survived...."
> 
> Andrew.
> - - - - - - - -
> I washed my kilt last night and now I can't do a fling with it.
> - - - - - - - - 

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End of blakes7-d Digest V00 Issue #55
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