From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V98 #208 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume98/208 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 98 : Issue 208 Today's Topics: [B7L] Relationships Re: [B7L] Jenna [B7L] B7, Hamlet, other lit Re: [B7L] Relationships RE: [B7L] Jenna Re: [B7L] Drinks of Water [B7L] Relationships Re: [B7L]UK Gold Intros Re: [B7L] Relationships Re: [B7L] Jenna Re: [B7L] Relationships ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 02:44:31 PDT From: "Rob Clother" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Relationships Message-ID: <19980803094431.18878.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain Hi there: One of my first intentions this week had been to return to the Hamlet/Othello/Blake thread, but my attention has been sidetracked by a conversation I had during the weekend. An old friend was discussing her relationships, and confessed that she had impossibly high romantic ideals. She's addicted to Nineteenth Century romantic novels, and she seems to be waiting for some kind of Heathcliffe figure to step into her life. In every other respect, she's a good, strong Nineties woman, but I honestly believe her ideals have been moulded by the literature she's read. If you accept that this can happen, I was wondering how that process would affect me. You see, for me -- and I'm curious to find out if I'm unique in this aspect -- the most electrifying literary relationships have all been non-sexual. Of all these relationships, my top three would be (in descending order): -- (From "The House of the Spirits": Isabel Allende's book) Esteban Trueba and his granddaughter. This is about an old and broken man, who has lost everything he loves and paid for his sins tenfold, then finds the relationship he had been waiting for all his life, at the end of his life. Warning: this relationship is not covered in the film, so read the book if you want to know what I'm banging on about. -- Blake and Avon. Far more moving than Avon and Anna, I have to stress. Of "Rumours of Death" and "Terminal", the latter was significantly more tragic and more convincing. It was interesting that Avon could forgive Servalan for her part in the Anna Grant conspiracy (She knew who Bartholomew was, after all), but not for what she did to him on Terminal. -- (From "Three Colours Red") Valentine and the Judge. Of the three films, Red, White and Blue, all of which focus on human relationships, this one is the only one which focuses on a non-sexual relationship. It also stands head and shoulders above the other two, because of the mysterious, timeless bond between fashion model Valentine and an embittered retired judge. One way to look at this is to say it's just my own predilections at work. Another is to say that human relationships can be far deeper and more intense if they're not bound to the traditional romantic or sexual ideals. Any thoughts on this? -- Rob PS. I despise the word "Platonic", which is why I've been using the ugly, clinical "non-sexual" alternative. I'd be grateful if someone could come up with something more appropriate. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 17:09:28 +0100 From: "spudgun" To: "Judith Proctor" , "Lysator List" Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna Message-Id: <199808031438.QAA16714@samantha.lysator.liu.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Your last question is quite an interesting one. I was recently off work ill for a week and predictably spent much of my day watching TV. The only two programmes I enjoyed watching were Sesame Street and The Jerry Springer Show. The Jerry Springer show is on every day and I watched with a sort of horrified fascination. The fact that there was always a woman somewhere on the stage, standing up swearing and yelling the odds at everyone in a Harlem accent was okay, though it was difficult to make out what she was saying through all the beeps. What I found incredible was that the actual content of what was being said was usually crass, Insensitive and stultifyingly ill-informed. Yet whenever one of these women started one of their vulgar monologues it was always met with a round of applause, 'wops', yeah's' and general all round approval from the female members of the audience. I realise this is off topic, and that The Jerry Springer Show is American, however I would be interested as to why this attitude seems to be linked with strength. Spudgun ---------- > From: Judith Proctor > To: Lysator List > Subject: [B7L] Jenna > Date: Thursday, July 30, 1998 08:58 > > I disagree with Katharine. I don't think Blake was flirting with Inga in > 'Hostage'. The more I see that episode, the more it comes across as cousinly > affection and not romance. > > I think Jenna was annoyed because she only saw them together for a few moments > and read it the wrong way. I think the kiss is actually on hte cheek and not on > the lips even, though I'd have to watch again to be certain. > > Jenna and Blake may well not have had a sexual relationship. I think there was > attraction on both sides, but Blake was very focused on his fight against the > Federation and that may not allowed him to fully commit himself anywhere else. > > > Would Jenna have settled for a casual relationship? How do people see her in > this regard? (I think she might have done, but that Blake was an all or nothing > man) > > > I'd agree with Roger that Jenna might be really foul-mouthed in a move, though I > disagree about Avon. I don't see Avon as swearing at all. He doesn't need to > with his ability at sarcasm. > > Actually, has it become a cliche that strong woman have to swear a lot just to > prove that they are tough? > > Judith > > -- > http://www.hermit.org/Blakes7 > > Redemption 99 - The Blakes 7/Babylon 5 convention > 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Kent > http://www.smof.com/redemption/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 08:27:31 -0700 From: "Ann Basart" To: "Blake's7" Subject: [B7L] B7, Hamlet, other lit Message-Id: <199808031525.IAA17681@mercury.dnai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been enjoying the discussion on Hamlet, Iago, and B7. Along these lines, can anyone tell me whether there are other episodes or characters, besides Dorian in "Rescue," based on literary sources? It's been a long time since I read Oscar Wilde's "Portrait of Dorian Grey," but it seems to me that Dorian, in speaking of his own corruption, may be paraphrasing the book (of course in "Rescue," Dorian had a "room," rather than a portrait, hidden away): Dorian: The room exists, Avon. And since I found it I haven't aged one day. It cleanses me of all the corruptions of time and appetite. Avon: Appetite? Dorian: I can do anything, Avon. Avon: Most madmen can. Dorian: I can indulge any taste, any sensation, any vice I wish and the room ... Avon: Cleanses you. Dorian: Exactly. Avon: You really are insane, aren't you? Dorian: By now I probably would be. Avon: If it wasn't for this mysterious room. Dorian: And what it contains. Soolin: (enters) And what might that be, Dorian? Dorian: Ah, Soolin. I was just about to summon you. Soolin: Not with a gun in your hand. What does the room contain, Dorian? Dorian: All the madness and rotting corruption which would have been mine. It contains horror, Soolin. Avon: And this horror? It shows itself to you, does it? Dorian: It will show itself to all of us. Soolin: I think not. But my question is really whether anyone knows of other such literary connections in B7. Thanks, Ann abasart@dnai.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 17:54:34 +0100 (BST) From: Iain Coleman To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Relationships Message-Id: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 3 Aug 1998, Rob Clother wrote: > One way to look at this is to say it's just my own predilections at > work. Another is to say that human relationships can be far deeper and > more intense if they're not bound to the traditional romantic or sexual > ideals. Any thoughts on this? Not necessarily deeper or more intense, but certainly more interesting to an outsider. When you ask "why do these people have such a strong bond between them" and the answer is "they fancy each other" - fair enough, but it's pretty boring. If there's something deeper in their characters which makes them need each other, you have much more potential for interesting drama. Iain > > PS. I despise the word "Platonic", which is why I've been using the > ugly, clinical "non-sexual" alternative. I'd be grateful if someone > could come up with something more appropriate. > Dry? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 19:24:41 +-200 From: Jacqueline Thijsen To: Lysator List Subject: RE: [B7L] Jenna Message-Id: <01BDBF14.5DCCDCC0@nl-arn-lap0063> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Jerry Springer is on every day in Holland, too. Horrified fascination does seem to be the only way to watch it these days. As for the cheers when a woman is swearing: in that show, swearing has somehow become entertainment, even when it isn't very imaginative and in fact makes her look incredibly dumb. Strength has very little to do with it, except for when compared to the old-fashioned feminine ideal of being very quiet and in the background. Compared to that everyone on that show is very "strong". Personally, I have always thought that the leading ladies in B7 all showed a lot of strength and they obviously didn't need swearing to do so. I don't think foul language would make them look any better, either. More realistic, perhaps, but not better. Jacqueline Your last question is quite an interesting one. I was recently off work ill for a week and predictably spent much of my day watching TV. The only two programmes I enjoyed watching were Sesame Street and The Jerry Springer Show. The Jerry Springer show is on every day and I watched with a sort of horrified fascination. The fact that there was always a woman somewhere on the stage, standing up swearing and yelling the odds at everyone in a Harlem accent was okay, though it was difficult to make out what she was saying through all the beeps. What I found incredible was that the actual content of what was being said was usually crass, Insensitive and stultifyingly ill-informed. Yet whenever one of these women started one of their vulgar monologues it was always met with a round of applause, 'wops', yeah's' and general all round approval from the female members of the audience. I realise this is off topic, and that The Jerry Springer Show is American, however I would be interested as to why this attitude seems to be linked with strength. Spudgun ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Aug 1998 15:58:40 +0100 From: "Jenni -Alison" To: "Lysator List" Subject: Re: [B7L] Drinks of Water Message-Id: <199808031620.SAA21789@samantha.lysator.liu.se> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Rob wrote: > >Carol wrote > >Couldn't we at least modify that to a big, tasty, scenic drink of > >water? ;-) > > > I was going to indulge you in this. Then I remembered his Season 4 > haircut. How about a glass of Thames water, overlooking Battersea power > station? > > Hm. I wonder what Jenni would make of that... Aha! A Challenge! Right, well anything supporting as much microscopic life as the Thames must be full of life and energy, and Tarrant was full of life and energy. (Appologies to Mr Pratchett for blatant plagarism) Also, Battersea power station - tall chimneys, upright and erect against the skyline, daring and bold in their defiance of those who want to turn them into a funfair.... I'm struggling! No, it's no good. I give in. But I'll be back! Jenni ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 4 Aug 1998 08:28:48 +1200 From: Nicola Collie To: B7-list Subject: [B7L] Relationships Message-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Rob said [snippage] >PS. I despise the word "Platonic", which is why I've been using the >ugly, clinical "non-sexual" alternative. I'd be grateful if someone >could come up with something more appropriate. Par'n my miniscule classical background, but why do you hate the word platonic so much? To me it sounds much better than non-sexual, which I think implies that the relationship is like a sexual one but with the sex taken away (if you know what I mean). If you want an alternative to platonic, how about something building on either of the Greek words agape or filia - I understand they refer to different kinds of love, without referring to sex (eros). Maybe agapic or filiac? O'course, you'd then have to explain what you meant every time you used them - not a problem with platonic, as it's a reasonably well-known word. ttfn, Nicola --- Nicola Collie mailto:nicola.collie@stonebow.otago.ac.nz Telepathy means never having to say " ". ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 23:16:53 +0100 From: JMR To: Subject: Re: [B7L]UK Gold Intros Message-Id: <3.0.2.32.19980803231653.006b1cc4@clara.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 15:48 02/08/98 +0100, Julie Horner wrote: > I noticed that UK Gold don't seem to be using Paul's introductions to >the episodes anymore. This morning was Project Avalon which he definitely >did an intro for last time through so I switched on specially just to see >that - but no! Can anyone think why they wouldn't use them when they >have already got them? Julie Horner As I understand it (from Diane Gies), UK Gold don't actually have the trailers any more. The BBC bought UK Gold last year, and revamped their format for the Sunday morning SF slot - dumping Glen Allen who had done both B7 and DW intros for quite a while, and also stopping the intros Paul had recorded for B7. I suspect that if you didn't manage to tape the intros the first time round, you won't get another chance, because it seems that they ditched the recordings. Typical BBC. Judith J.M. Rolls jager@clara.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 23:06:40 PDT From: "Edith Spencer" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Relationships Message-ID: <19980804060641.6168.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain To all, particular Rob: Interesting comments on the types of relationships that we come to relish based on the type of literature we read or shows that we watched. Part of the reason for that is that many of the writers are particularly gifted people with a unique view of the human condition. ( Speaking of current tv, only JMS of B5 particularly seems to have this talent.) this writers and artist seem to have the ability to pick out idealistic threads and present them to us in such a way that seems hyperreal. Yes I made up that word, but I'm an American :). What I mean by the term is that the ideals and emotions are so so fine, so complex and yet so very connected to what is desired in real life, that it is part of our reality and yet stands alone. I have to agree to a point that sometimes the most intense relationships are non sexual ones, and the Blake - Avon duo is part of that. Because they so seeming different, with opposite views on things, you would think that would try to kill each other. But it develops into an uneasy, tricky friendship. Now, the slashers may have a differing viewpoint :) but there it is. And I think the term you may want to use is Agapos, the love that comes out of intense friendship, parent-child or describing a relationship with God. It is a Greek term. Romantic love would be Eros (of course.) Edith ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Aug 1998 23:31:55 PDT From: "Edith Spencer" To: spudgun@dial.pipex.com, blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Jenna Message-ID: <19980804063156.20989.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain To all and Spudgun (great name), The horrified fascination that you describe in watching the Jerry Springer show is part of its enormous success. It exploits ill educated, underemployed people with a host of terrible personal problems. They call the shows, tell of the problems they have at home and are treated to couple of days in Chicago in a nice hotel with a bar tab and meals out. In exchange they get to tell their story on tv. This dubious bit of fame is probably all they would have that worth anything to them.And becasue these people are not treated gently and with respect, their language is equally rough.( this is not to say all working class people are rough talkers- I have met janitors and mechanics with elegant, beautiful speech.) In regard to Jenna and whether she would swear or not, I think she would say something in extreme duress, but she did not strike as being crass or crude. She seems quite intelligent, specially if she was smuggler, and could probably do better than say "F44k off". Besides, it is more fun to come up with rejoiners than crass sailor talk ( I have been known to do both:) Edith ( not Piaf) P.S. Please don't watch those types of shows. It is nasty and degrading. Watch more sesame street, watch more b7 or b5, read a book, read fan fiction, pick weeds, pick flowers, make frozen custard,make cake, make love, read a book to a child in your area, get a massage, give a massage, sing...but don't watch that crap. with love, Edith ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Aug 1998 11:42:20 PDT From: "Rob Clother" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Relationships Message-ID: <19980804184223.18749.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain >Rob said >[snippage] >>PS. I despise the word "Platonic", which is why I've been using the >>ugly, clinical "non-sexual" alternative. I'd be grateful if someone >>could come up with something more appropriate. > >Par'n my miniscule classical background On this list I shouldn't think there's any need to apologise for that! It's fair game here to air your opinions, which will be corrected if they're factually inaccurate -- then everyone learns something. That's the attitude I've been adopting, anyway. >but why do you hate the word platonic so much? "Platonic" is idealistic: it implies that somehow you're closer to the "Real World", of which our material World is only a shadow. So, a Platonic relationship is ethereal: it lies above and outside romantic or sexual imperatives. At this point, I'm getting a little worried, because this only seems to back up the points I was making in my original posting. Romantic and sexual imperatives can tie a relationship down and limit its potential, and Plato's whole point was that enlightenment comes from freeing oneself of the bonds of the material World. I suppose my objection is that a fraternal, filial or agapic relationship (Thanks for the suggestions!) is not necessarily any less materialistic than a sexual one: it's just motivated by different needs. And I'm not sure the material World is that restrictive anyway. To justify this, I can only cite a piece of bar-room science I heard someone come up with the other day. The estimated number of molecules in the Universe is 10^102 (1 with 102 zeroes tagged onto the end). The estimated number of positions on a chessboard is 10^120 (This shouldn't be too hard to check, but I'll take it as read for the moment). The estimated number of connections in the human brain is 10^800. Looking at it like that, I don't see the material World placing any restrictions on anything. Anyway, I think this has some relevance to B7, if only tangential, and that's my excuse for posting it on the list. -- Rob PS: >Telepathy means never having to say " ". Nice quote! -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Rob Clother Leeds http://www.amsta.leeds.ac.uk/~rob -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V98 Issue #208 **************************************