From: blakes7-d-request@lysator.liu.se Subject: blakes7-d Digest V99 #82 X-Loop: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se X-Mailing-List: archive/volume99/82 Precedence: list MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/digest; boundary="----------------------------" To: blakes7-d@lysator.liu.se Reply-To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se ------------------------------ Content-Type: text/plain blakes7-d Digest Volume 99 : Issue 82 Today's Topics: Re: [B7L] Myers, Vila & I's Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (INTJ?P) [B7L] Avon: J or P? [B7L] Re: Avon: J or P? Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (INTJ?P) Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (New Definitions!) Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (INTJ?P) [B7L] Angela Bruce Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats ( really long) Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats ( really long) [B7L] Pages 6 March Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats ( really long) Re: [B7L] Re: Constructive Criticism Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats [B7L] Allure, Power Games and Tarrant the sex beast. [B7L] B7L videos Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (INTJ?P) Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (INTJ?P) Re: [B7L] Allure, Power Games and Tarrant the sex beast. Re: [B7L] Re: Constructive Criticism [B7L] . Re: [B7L] . Re:[B7L]Allure, Power Games and Tarrant the sex beast ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1999 23:58:56 -0800 From: Tramila To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers, Vila & I's Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990224235856.008295c0@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Tramila wrote: >> I admit to feeling a little bit out in left field on this list. (ie, I feel like a fish out of >>water.) It is a truly strange feeling to be an extrovert in a predominately >> introvert list. Mistral wrote: > Tramila, please!!!!!! You can't *say* that to a bunch of INTs and run away. heh >How *exactly* does it feel? Surely you don't mean to say that you're intimidated by >us? Exactly? INT's are very intimidating. INTs are very articulate and exacting in what they say. As you could see by my post, my brain is a bit scattered. (You should see me in RL.) ie, I think in random leaps. INTs, in my opinion, are linear thinkers. They can coordinate ideas then express them in ways that leave very little room for argument. Now don't get me wrong, I'm very exacting and precise in some things. I'm an Engineer who should have been an accountant but get me in a room full of INTs and I usually feel that while I can have some fun arguing my point, I know that in the end, I will have the short end of the stick. Also, I get lots of practice being on the short end of the stick because hubby is an Engineer studying for a Masters in Anthropology and as you can guess, he is an INT. (Can you say Latin version of Avon?) >How do you view the difference between extrovert list behaviour and introvert >list behaviour? Introvert list - B7 Extrovert List - SKL On the B7 list, we get into deep discussions like this strain on the MB test. No matter if it is MB or more on-topic subjects, most of the posts are long, thought provoking discussions expressing opinions or ideas about the topic. Think Avon expressing his opinion until he thinks that his point has been delivered to an exacting understanding by all crew members. On the SKL list and on other predominately extrovert list, the posts are vastly different. Instead of trying to explain a typical Extrovert post, I have decided to give an example. Although it is short, the normal length of a typical extrovert post is short. ================= Subject: Ekkkkkkkkkk GUESS what I got in the mail today!!!!!! The Blake's 7 fanzine I ordered!!!!!!! YES YES YES!!!!! See you guys in a few days. Heh! Heh! {{{{{{SKL}}}}}}} Tramila =================== This is a typical post that an INT would delete. An Extrovert, however, delights in sending and receiving a post such as the above. If you are the one who wrote it, you are delighted, happy, and only wish to share your joy with your friends. If you are one of the ones who received this post, you would be happy for your list mate. You would even respond it to say how happy you are that your friend had something nice happy to them. (I'm not saying that the Introvert list would not express joy for another however they would probably do it privately versus on the public forum.) So I hope that this example is better than trying to explain in words how an extrovert list works. Please understand that while I love being on extrovert list, I find this list fascinating and fun to be on as well. My major problem is that I'm a very slow typist so to discuss all the insights on B7 on a regular basis can be frustrating to me because I just can't seem to keep up. (at this point, I have been answering this post for almost an hour) OK, time to make Pat's ears burn again. He. He. If I'm not typing, I can get into fairly deep, introvert discussion sessions. As I've said before, Pat and I have talked for hours about B7. BTW, Pat called today and was suitable impressed by my long post. WOW!!! I impressed an INT. Heh. >Come baaaaaaaaaaaack!! (Or are you as cowardly as Vila pretends to be )? fighting words, Mistral! Vila isn't cowardly. He's just very, very cautious. :) One final comment. I'm going to a con in Santa Barbara, California tomorrow so if I don't answer, it is because I'll not be home. I will be home and available to answer mail on Monday since my friend from Baltimore will be leaving then. Wishing Pat was coming to the con so we could have our fun marathon discussion sessions. >"And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila Picking on my Vila again? hummmmmmmmmmm. PS: Avona: I look forward to reading your post. :) hugs Also, this post took 1 hour 15 minutes to write. Tramila --------- Charter Member and Pres. of V.I.C.E. Vila's Intimately Corruptible Element Am I corruptible? Of course I am! and loving it!!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 00:09:06 -0800 From: Tramila To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (INTJ?P) Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19990225000906.007f8160@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Pherber@aol.com wrote: >> That's one aspect of him that seems to deviate from the standard INTP type. >> He's sexy, he knows it, and he frequently dresses to emphasize it (which in >> his case seems to also mean dressing to intimidate). No pocket protectors for >> our Avon.... Mistral wrote: >LOL!!! Pocket protectors are for engineers, not techno-wizards. Avon doesn't need >anything in his pockets, his brain holds it all. what pocket protector? Besides, the only reason Avon doesn't have one is that his leathers are too skin tight to accommodate one. Is it getting hot in here? Tramila --------- Charter Member and Pres. of V.I.C.E. Vila's Intimately Corruptible Element Am I corruptible? Of course I am! and loving it!!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:10:43 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: blakes7@lysator.liu Subject: [B7L] Avon: J or P? Message-ID: <26A6721558C@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT How many people on this list actually vote for eack camp? Let's have a show of hands. Vick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:19:22 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] Re: Avon: J or P? Message-ID: <26A8C120F05@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT From: "VJC" Organization: University of Portsmouth To: blakes7@lysator.liu Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:10:43 GMT0BST Subject: Avon: J or P? Priority: normal How many people on this list actually vote for eack camp? Let's have a show of hands. Vick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:08:00 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: blakes7@lysator.liu Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (INTJ?P) Message-ID: <26A5B1F7276@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Mistral, Are you sure you're not me? > LOL!!! Pocket protectors are for engineers, not techno-wizards. Avon doesn't need > anything in his pockets, his brain holds it all. Vick. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:55:22 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: Helen Krummenacker CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (New Definitions!) Message-ID: <26B257376F9@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > By George, I think Iain may have _got_ it! This notion makes sense to > me, but maybe it's just because I am borderline. I want to get the > "Understand Me" book to go more in depth, because I definitely identify > with the short definition of J rather than P, but perhaps these > represent stages of the decision making process, from an INT point of > view. Is there anyone so strongly typed on the J/P scale they can give > us a different perspective? I'm afraid I've got to agree with Iain as well. I'm a strong INTP, about 80% P, but I tend to operate in a way strategically that would be more closely associated with the INTJ. Of course, all things being relative, just how messy does your desk have to be to qualify as a P? I've said before, I have a very tidy mind and even applied to my room there's order in the chaos. Maybe the reason why a strong SJ would consider me disorganised is that they fail to see the underlying structure of things. As long as I know where things are where they're meant to be, that's all that matters! I see people as conduits for infomation, rather than as people in their own right, but I have a select few close friends who I presume until proven otherwise I would be loyal too. Course, it would take a life-and-death situation to prove this! I have been working on (my own!) new temperment analysis theory which divideds people into only three groups. Each group can only be divided into I/E and F/T 1. Brahma. Sensate Judging Traditionalist, lives on past experience. Commonly ambitionless but responsable. Likes to be a pillar of society, likes church groups and the military. Dresses traditionally. Has traditional values. Can be boring and inflexable. Favorite TV: Soaps, News, Quizshows Sees what the world has to offer, and tolerates it. 2. Vishnu. Sensate Percieving Lives for the moment, the here and now. Loves partys, fashion, pop music, discos etc. Reads the tabloids, hot on gossip. Competent workers, but may be irresponsable. Tendancy to take things to excess. Favorite TV: MTV, Soaps, Sitcoms, Gameshows. Sees what the world has to offer, and loves it! 3. Shiva Intuative Lives one step towards the future, and would really rather not inhabit the domain of the flesh at all. Abstract thinking, the two poles of Thinking and Feeling are manifest as either uncanny insights, flawless logic or empathic, charismatic relationships. Replacement of traditional values with logic or empathy may make the Intuative appear amoral. Favorite TV: Sci-Fi, Supernatural, Science documentarys e.g. Discovery Channel, Tommorow's World. Sees the world for what it is, but would really like to mould in in their own image. Now, does anyone want to help me devise a test? Vick. Still INTP, but receptive to arguments otherwise. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:05:20 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se, mistral@ptinet.net Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (INTJ?P) Message-ID: <26B505C0F59@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > VJC wrote: > > > In which case it's possible that we both *are* Avon, so now > > we really know what happened after GP. > > freed of time, there is no after GP As far as my video recorder is concerned, and that my only experience of the aformentioned event was witnessed though such device, the linear nature of the witnessed recording ended with a fade to black then credits, gun fire, fade into theme music, ignorant person talking over said credits, them a UK Gold logo on the end to match the one in the top left hand corner. After that, commercials. > Do you still think I'm a J? > you could be faking P behaviours This is illogical. This is a J world, where true Ps have enough problems of their own without Js who think they are Ps experimenting with the experience. Vick > > To infinity and beyond! > > now there's a truly meaningless conceptthere is nothing beyond infinity Yes there is, and it's purple. > of course i could be wrong about all of this > i need LOTS more information to decide anything > mistral shouted DON'T YOU SHOUT IN CAPITALS? X (kiss of Death) > "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila > > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:10:59 +0000 From: Steve Rogerson To: Lysator Subject: [B7L] Angela Bruce Message-ID: <36D521B3.B94EDE0B@mcr1.poptel.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The current issue of Dr Who Magazine (275) has an interview with Angela Bruce, who played Dayna in the Sevenfold Crown. Though most of it is about her Dr Who episode Battlefield (I seriously recommend people to watch that episode), there was a brief bit about B7. She says: "I wasn't in it on television - Josette Simon played the part - but I had this awful feeling at one point that somebody thought I was. I had to do some boning up for it. and it was quite, erm, boring!" -- cheers Steve Rogerson Redemption 99: The Blakes 7 and Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Ashford, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ "Get in there you big furry oaf, I don't care what you smell" Star Wars ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:18:53 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: Susan.Moore@uni.edu CC: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs Message-ID: <26B89D47537@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Susan Moore wrote > Myers Briggs is spreading. The US library world (through an agency known as the > Office of Management Studies) is using the Myers Briggs quite a bit. That's > how I had to take the full thing. Oh how I wish it was! In case you didn't know, I'm British. There is absolutly no material available on the tests outside of the Internet, and our careers advisors etc. use the Forsyth 16 personality factor test instead, which is elitist and not intended to be understood by anyone other than a trained psychologist. I'm not interested in that test due to the fact that is does very little to define types other than related directly to suitable positions in the workplace. ( e.g. Shaper, Director, Finisher...) I just want to know who I am, not what job I wouldn't be suited for. What does it all mean and what's the point? Besides, Myers Briggs is fun. I should know, I started this strand! (sorry) Vick (Evil grin) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:22:20 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: mistral@ptinet.net CC: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats ( really long) Message-ID: <26B98DC1DBA@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > > I don't really recall Avon using his masculine wiles to any great effect > > in Power. Are you claiming that his testosterone fuelled sneers at > > Pella's expense were a charismatic seduction scene :) Read my LOC, Horizon NL 40. Vick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:35:18 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: mistral@ptinet.net CC: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats ( really long) Message-ID: <26BD038013D@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT As this was so long, I've skipped the whole thing. INTxs don't understand flirtation any more than they do small talk. NTs dress like nerds. The only clothes in Liberator's locker in Avon's size were sexy. Otherwise he'd have stayed with the prison uniform, but it was beginning to stink. That said, Avon did 'Smell like a man' didn't he? Maybe the Federation had banned Right Guard. Second thoughts though, we do know that he bathed. Maybe the soap was bad. Knowledge is the only power. Avon's kiss was always meant in spite. He had a great sense of irony. Vick XXX ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:46:39 +0000 From: Steve Rogerson To: Lysator Subject: [B7L] Pages 6 March Message-ID: <36D52A0D.E2B4C23E@mcr1.poptel.org.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A few of us are meeting up for a drink at Pages Bar on Saturday 6 March for a post-convention-blues drink. Please feel free to come along. Let me know if you are coming and we'll watch out for you. The bar opens from 5.30 till 11. Pages Bar is on Page Street, London SW1P. Nearest tubes are Pimlico and Westminster and railway stations Charing Cross, Victoria and Waterloo are not far away. The No 88 bus, which you can pick up near Piccadilly Circus, goes right past the door. The C10 bus also goes past the door and you can get that at Victoria. -- cheers Steve Rogerson Redemption 99: The Blakes 7 and Babylon 5 convention 26-28 February 1999, Ashford International Hotel, Ashford, Kent http://www.smof.com/redemption/ "Get in there you big furry oaf, I don't care what you smell" Star Wars ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 03:17:37 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list CC: VJC Subject: Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats ( really long) Message-ID: <36D53151.A22AF3D8@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit VJC wrote: > As this was so long, I've skipped the whole thing. Must be my lucky day ;-P Then again, INTPs always want to know everything. > INTxs don't understand flirtation any more than they do small talk. > NTs dress like nerds. The only clothes in Liberator's locker in > Avon's size were sexy. Otherwise he'd have stayed with the prison > uniform, but it was beginning to stink. This proves that you are either INTJ/male/kidding. INTP women and some of the men are well aware of the value of clothes as weapons/armor. They *may* have really bad taste, but they do try, when they need to make an impression. And the vast majority of INTPs can be incredibly *good* flirts if they make the effort; it is, in fact, possibly the *only* aspect of social behaviour that they can truly imitate successfully, it being heavily ritualized. INTx Avon *certainly* understands it; if you don't realize that, then you are either INTJ/male/kidding. > Knowledge is the only power. Avon's kiss was always meant in spite. > He had a great sense of irony. Here you are entirely correct. There may be hope yet. > Vick XXX Mistral p.s. please don't post my entire messages back to the list when they're not relevant because I'm sure everybody's tired of me, at least for this month. That's why I've been responding to you off-list (except of course for this, which I have cc'd) If you want to annoy them, do it with your own scribblings, -K-? -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 09:46:39 +0000 From: Russ Massey To: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> Cc: "INTERNET:blakes7@lysator.liu.se" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Constructive Criticism Message-ID: In message <199902241306_MC2-6BAC-2C4E@compuserve.com>, Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> writes >Neil told Russ: >>You won't be there? That's a shame. Your presence will be sadly missed. >> >>Not by me, of course, but I'm sure someone will miss you. > >Well, I had hoped to find out how old he thought I looked (ie am I over the >hill as a guerrilla fighter?). I'll just have to ask for his estimate in >public now, I suppose. (His memory may have edited out some of my wrinkles >since Redemption.) > Let me see, Harriet, Harriet... Shortish, curly dark hair, bubbly personality? A bit like a foreshortened Cally? Grizzled non-com rather than naive young recruit? I misremember you well. And all the women at the con looked far too young to be there without adult supervision. And I was verry, verry drunk... -- Russ Massey ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 10:45:54 +0000 From: Russ Massey To: Helen Krummenacker Cc: "Blake's 7 list" Subject: Re: [B7L] More B7 game stats Message-ID: In message <36D42E3B.663D@jps.net>, Helen Krummenacker writes >Russ Massey wrote: >> >> writes > >> >Russ, where have you been, when he kissed Cally/alien in 'Sarcophogus'? >> >> Making the coffee. Every single time :) >> >> Okay, okay, I concede that in that instance, when he had to save his >> life and their was a being practically gagging for him he went along >> with her and made cow-eyes. There. Happy now? I still say he made a >> very bad job of it, and only the alien's bizarre taste gave him a chance >> of success... >Bizarre taste? Russ, I sense a little troll in you. Well - just a little maybe. I admit that at age 18 I would have loved to be like Avon. At age 38 I've got over that. I want to be like George Smiley :) > After all, probably >about 2/3rds of the women on this list would say the alien had rather >good taste, and that Avon made a very yummy-looking job of that kiss. >> Well putting myself in a women's shoes (thigh-length leather boots with 3 inch heels to be precise) I'd have to find Tarrant the more attractive of the male characters. I think it's the sense that he's not constantly judging others and finding them wanting. And the curly hair. >> > >> He never seems to try it on women who *aren't* already attracted to >> him. Of course, it may be he's never met one :) >LOL! I think that's a matter of INT behavior. I hate this Myers-Briggs thing. Am I the only one deleting all these posts? > It's one thing to be >intrigued by the effect one has on a member of the opposite sex, it's >another thing to go out of ones way to cause it. I've really got to >get to one of the big B7 cons one day and see how my 'Servalan' act goes >over. > You've got a lot of competition in David Walsh. Or do you just mean you intend to assassinate the con committee and elevate yourself to a position of *ultimate* power, while sensuously running your fingers over anyone who takes your fancy? -- Russ Massey Sirius Games, 161 Montague Street, Worthing, West Sussex BN11 3BZ (01903 217334) http://www.wriding.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 11:29:18 +0000 From: Russ Massey To: mistral@ptinet.net Cc: B7 list Subject: [B7L] Allure, Power Games and Tarrant the sex beast. Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In message <36D4D0A1.15079A0A@ptinet.net>, mistral@ptinet.net writes >Okay, Russ, this will teach you not to make so many provocative comments >and ask >so many interesting questions. > >Russ and I said: > >> >> The only major characters who use their allure as a weapon in B7 are >> >> Servalan and Tarrant (a little), I would say. I don't see Avon as >> >> pretending to seduce women to get what he wants. >> > >> >Hmmm, Russ. Depends on how you define seduce. Did you see Aftermath? >> >Power? >> >> I don't really recall Avon using his masculine wiles to any great effect >> in Power. Are you claiming that his testosterone fuelled sneers at >> Pella's expense were a charismatic seduction scene :) > >Since I know that like Vila, 'you are a clever man', You're just guessing. I might be an AI attempting to simulate a B7 fan. >I must assume that >you are >being disingenuous here . Antagonism as seduction is *not* just a bad >romance >novel cliché, but a biological fact. Probably most bad romance novel clichés have a basis in fact (hey - you got an accent on the e - I'll have to try that). It doesn't mean that actively annoying someone is *always* going to get their glands flowing. And aren't we at the evolutionary stage were our conscious forebrains can override these atavistic impulses? >Any type of arousal makes other >types more >likely, to the point that dating articles in mainstream mags have been >saying >for a couple of years now to take the object of your desire white-water >rafting >or to cross a ravine on a rope bridge. Or insulting Tarrant at a Tarrant Nostra meeting... > Lots of couples like to do the >fight/make >up thing. I could say more, but I'm not subbed to the Other List. Well there's nothing specifically forbidden about discussing sex on this list. So go ahead - say more. I dare ya! Are you all talk. Are you someone who starts a subject and gets a topic all hot and flustered and than abandons it to a cold and lonely archive file. There's a name for posters like you! (Was that antagonistic enough to get you going :) > I >don't, in >fact, recall Pella objecting at the time--not even a little squeak. You >surely >don't intend to tell me that you think she was so drained by attacking >the >guards and Avon that she couldn't say 'No, don't'? Whether he would have >respected that or not *might* be a matter for debate, but *not* the fact >that >she didn't object. Actually she might have perceived the act of objecting to be a tacit admission of weakness, and so avoided it. Not much point objecting unless you can back up your refusal to go along with some form of force that could cow Avon. > Actually, I think realizing that she hadn't objected >(verbally or actually) only fueled her rage at him later. But it's not >outside >the realm of possibility to think that at the time, she might have >actually >wanted him to kiss her-- why not? Because she was supposed to focussed on a very important task? Because she couldn't be sure that Avon wasn't one of those brutes for who one kiss is not enough? (And because she was in a Ben Steed script, and should have known better than to mess with an Alpha male) > Might have been a new experience for >her-- >unless you think the Seska belong on the Other List. I hadn't given it much thought, but it would fit the theme for the Seska to be lesbians by force of circumstance. >So, yes, I think he >used >his masculinity effectively there-- although I thought according to the >rule you >quoted we were talking about his awareness and use of it, not the >*effective* >use of it. > Um. But what was Avon trying to *do* by kissing Pella? Distract her? Convince her of his superiority? It was a power thing IMO - he did it show that he could, not to win her to his way of thinking, which is what sex appeal would normally be used for in game terms. You could even judge it a use of the intimidation skill, I could claim. >> >***Sarcophagus***? >> >> Mmm. Surely Sarcophagus was Avon's strong will being applied to >> resist the Alien's Sex Appeal. Yes, she found him desirable, but that's >> passive reaction to his charms - I don't see him doing anything to >> encourage her. > >Disingenuous again, see above. Everything he did after walking onto the >flight >deck encouraged her. Heck, pitting himself against her encouraged her, >not just >because of the antagonism as seduction, but because she was obviously >(IMHO) a >power junkie (takes one to know one) and he was showing off his power to >her. He >didn't just say 'I won't obey you', which would be a powerful enough >statement, >he said 'no one on this ship will obey you', which is a declaration of >war-- and >she had enough of a connection to Cally to know whether he could follow >through >on that. He could. (At least Cally thought so. Personally, I think it >might be >iffy. Kill Avon and watch the others crumple.) > I'm willing to say that you've half convinced me here. Avon responds best to women who challenge him (but does Anna fit that mould) and uses the same tactic himself. >Avon had to do not one, but *two* things with the Alien: make Cally >fight her >*and * get her ring. The connection between Cally and the Alien was so >strong >that Cally might not be able to fight for long; he could only hope that >she >could fight long enough for him to get the ring. So he threw everybody >else at >the Alien first, then when she's already agitated he ups the ante by >daring her >to kill him. He puts her on emotional and sensory overload, and then >kisses her >as a distraction to get the ring. He *has* to; how else is he going to >get close >enough to get it without her realizing it as a threat. But when he advances on her it's not obvious that it's with the intent of an embrace. She would have had every right to assume he meant to get close enough to snap her neck, and she's still unable to kill him. The kiss is Avon's victory mark. The way for him to show he's won. It still comes down to intimidation and power games IMO. >Of *course* he >knew what >he was doing. Avon's not perfect; he makes *lots* of mistakes; but >Tanith Lee >made him practically infallible in this ep, which surprises me. As for >the >Alien's Sex Appeal? I don't see that; apart from the power, which he's >in the >process of proving he's got more than she, Cally's got five times as >much, if >Avon's looking for sex appeal, and frankly, if he was smart enough to >know he'd >be dead in a week with Servalan, he'd know he might have a lot less time >with >the Alien, depending on how much influence whatever portion of Cally was >absorbed might have. I have to agree that the alien isn't particularly appealing. Should have done it more like Judith Parr (?) as Eldred in The Hand of Fear - alien and yet feminine without being overdressed and badly dressed. > >> > Avon's whole twisted relationship with Servalan? He >> >certainly was aware of his masculinity as a *weapon* in series' C and D-- >> >> I'm willing to accept that to some extent, but a few examples to argue >> over would be nice. > >Well, I've just done one from each, but if you want a replacement for >Power, I >personally think that his scenes with Vena in Headhunter scorch the >film, Eh? Vena is 'Muller's woman' isn't she? Have I been making coffee during crucial scenes again? I don't recall anything remotely scorching. >compared to Tarrant's tepid scenes with Zeeona in Warlord. (Although I >quite >like Zeeona, and would have liked her as a permanent addition.) > Me too. He was a bit love-sick puppyish, wasn't he. Still maybe he turned into a growling love-beast once they were safely locked away from all witnesses. >> > >> Where do you pinpoint the first appearance of lounge-lizard Avon? > >ROTFLOL!!! When Paul Darrow put on sideburns and an Elvis costume! > >Actually, the clothes start to get more and more flamboyant from pretty >much the >time Jenna finds the wardrobe, and of course he starts to grow out that >nasty >prison haircut. And as for throwing his masculinity around, he tries it >with >Jenna in ep three. Don't tell me you don't see it; I won't believe you. > No, I recognise that okay. And Jenna sees it exactly for what it is. He's not interested in her as a woman, at least not specifically, he's simply attempting to intimidate her with his masculinity. She's seen it all before and gives as good as she gets. In fact Jenna probably uses her sexuality the same way with everyone except Blake. >Okay, the first five reasons for the change in Avon from series A to >series D >that I can come up with are: > >1) Desperately Seeking Avon: Federation repression and pigeonholing has >forced >Avon to hide his true personality in order to survive unnoticed, rather >like >Vila buying Delta status at the testing center. Freed from the >Federation, Avon >starts to stretch his wings a bit. Freed from Blake, he really starts to >fly! > > But most of the time he doesn't. He's never exactly a party animal, though you could make a case for Gambit being when he really lets his hair down and enjoy himself. >2) On a Guilt Trip: When we meet Avon, he has been through an ordeal >(capture, >trial, transportation) and has repressed his emotions in order to cope. >Once on >the Liberator, however, the pressure eases up just enough to make him >relax a >little; and the guilt starts seeping through. First guilt about Anna's >death >(and whatever backstory you fancy for him); then later guilt about not >being >able to find Blake after the war, then the Anna/Bartolemew crisis, then >losing >the Liberator, then Cally-- the guy is on a long slow slide into madness >from >the first time we see him, not just series D. > It's a theory expounded in a lot of fanfic - mostly obliquely, but I don't buy it. His experiences on the Liberator and Scorpio do undoubtedly change him, but I don't think guilt is the prime mover here. Having said that I'm unable to put up any great alternative. >3) The Combination Plate (most common): The evil Federation has turned >many >basically nice people nasty in order to survive. Avon's one of these, >but Blake >helps him see the light , and by the end of season two, Avon is >approaching >his best self. After Blake is lost, Avon wanders aimlessly for a while, >decides >to avenge his lost love, kills her instead, then the guilt slide starts >as in 2) >above. > More or less my own take on Avon. >4) What Happens When You Give a Geek a Spaceship (my personal vote): In >my >experience, inside every little geeky male computer nerd there is a >superhero >[monster] screaming to be let out . IMHO is what causes the hacker >problem. >The first programs they write are strategic space battle programs and >such. They >see themselves as Conan/Captain Kirk/Captain Blood/Buck Rogers/Snake >Plissken, >whatever. These alter egos emerge with the least little bit of >encouragement. >What did you think was going to happen when geeky little Avon got his >hands on >the most powerful ship in the galaxy? > LOL! Brilliant idea for a parody. >5) Male Mental-Pause (made up this morning, especially for you, after 40 >hours >without sleep, and it's just crazy and scientifically plausible enough >to be the >'truth'): Avon is roughly Blake's age, possibly a little older, putting >him >early to mid-thirties when we meet him. We know he's been having a rough >time of >it lately, but playing second banana to the egregiously annoying Roj >Blake puts >him right over the edge and plunges him into _Avon's_Midlife_Crisis_! >The >primary task of midlife is to recover those parts of the self that were >repressed in youth, sacrificed on the altar of social necessity. Men >recover >their softer, feminine, intuitive side, while women reclaim their power >and >self-direction. Avon begins to get in touch with the >_Wild_Man_That_Is_Kerr_! > I'd go along with this except for one thing. He's not wild enough! He's always urging caution, complaining about the risks undertaken and generally being very careful with his own life. >> >As for Tarrant-- he's 'young; brave; handsome;' but Servalan seduced him, >> >not the other way around, so I don't see it. >> >> Well he's very chivalric but at the same time I would say is attitude to >> the female crew-members is only just short of active flirtation. It's >> been a while since I watched any vids, so I can't give any concrete >> proof at the moment unfortunately. > >Flirts with Dayna; practically drools on her in Traitor. I can actually >see them >as a potential couple, until he ticks her off in Sand. Not a hint of it >with >Cally and Soolin that I can see. > I seem to remember he gives Cally several appreciative glances in a few early episodes. I might be projecting :) > >> >Actually, Jenna did this allure thing, far more than Tarrant (Breakdown, >> >Bounty, The Keeper). >> > >> Indeed, how could I have missed that. (Breakdown? - when was that?) >> In fact I did give Jenna the Sex Appeal skill in the first lot of stats >> which you missed. I wonder how 'The Keeper' would have turned out >> with Cally captured by the Goths in place of Jenna? > >I knew you were going to ask about Breakdown. :-) Blake sets her to >chatting up >Kayn's assistant to get information about Kayn. And she's very grumpy about being asked to 'prostitute' herself by Blake ISTR. > As for The Keeper, >that's a very >interesting idea. Why don't you write it. Oh, thanks. Number 79 in the 'to do' list :) > >> > Sexy is as sexy does. Tarrant appeals if >> >you like innocence; but pirates are (*very* generally statistically >> >speaking) more appealing to women than choirboys. >> > >> >Which is interesting, because Jenna is more self-aware than Cally, and yet >> >Cally gets more attention than Jenna in fanfic. >> >> Is that true? I hadn't really noticed any disparity between the two. > >Their self-awareness or their attention in fanfic? I'd have thought the >former >was obvious. Jenna is aware of her looks, even makes a joke to Gan about >them >once (Shadow, I think). Apart from Cally's role as nursemaid, Jenna >touches the >men casually far more in her two series than Cally does in three. Uses >her looks >deliberately (above). Flirts with the men, shows off her clothes to Avon >in >Cygnus Alpha. In a very non-sexual way though. I think she was just genuinely pleased to get out of the same set of clothes she'd been wearing for 6 months+. Phew! I'm glad I'm doing this at work, rather than eating into my quality time. Sorry - that came over rather rude. I'm enjoying the discussion - haven't posted so much for ages. -- Russ Massey Sirius Games, 161 Montague Street, Worthing, West Sussex BN11 3BZ (01903 217334) http://www.wriding.demon.co.uk ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:17:35 -0000 From: "Debra Collard" To: "B7L" Subject: [B7L] B7L videos Message-ID: <000201be60b9$06d6a8a0$854b883e@whisson1globalnet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In case anyone is interested ,Blackstar books are discounting their B7 videos to £8.79 inclusive of UK postage. (http://www.blackstar.co.uk/) Debra ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:28:27 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: mistral@ptinet.net CC: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (INTJ?P) Message-ID: <26DB2C241E8@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > From: mistral@ptinet.net > Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 02:46:18 -0800 > To: VJC > Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (INTJ?P) > That was a simulated experience, not an actual one. Of course it was simulated, I experienced the real thing in a previous life. > > > Do you still think I'm a J? > > > you could be faking P behaviours > > > > This is illogical. This is a J world, where true Ps have enough > > problems of their own without Js who think they are Ps experimenting > > with the experience. > > That is yet another very J point of view you have expressed . A P would > never call the experimentation and attendant knowledge-gathering of such an > experience illogical. True. For all the effort I've put into proving that Avon is a P, it would be ironic if I turned out to be a J after all. Then again, I could be just trying to convince myself. You know what they say about an INTP argueing a point. They could be trying to convince themselves as much as they are trying to convince their opponant. > > I do not, however, discount the fact that you might have M.P.D., as you > certainly seem to speak with more than one voice . What does vvvvvvvvvveg mean? > > DON'T YOU SHOUT IN CAPITALS? > > Actually, I have a complete disdain for authority, like any good INT, and > avoid all places where I might encounter any sort of government official or > employee. Ha. Ha. I prefer a radio mic tuned to the same frequency as (UK) Classic FM. > X (kiss of Death) > > Don't be ridiculous. Death is a much better kisser. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 04:43:24 -0800 From: mistral@ptinet.net To: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Myers Briggs (INTJ?P) Message-ID: <36D5456B.6D94F41D@ptinet.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit VJC wrote: > True. For all the effort I've put into proving that Avon is a > P, it would be ironic if I turned out to be a J after all. LOL! Avon would enjoy the irony of that, don't you agree? > Then > again, I could be just trying to convince myself. You know what they > say about an INTP argueing a point. They could be trying to convince > themselves as much as they are trying to convince their opponant. Also very true. Flexibility again, the perceiving trait of P. Which of course reinforces that: > > I do not, however, discount the fact that you might have M.P.D., as you > > certainly seem to speak with more than one voice . > > What does vvvvvvvvvveg mean? v=very, e=evil, g=grin I think I'd better go do some housework. My brain is furring up. Mistral -- "And for my next trick, I shall swallow my other foot."--Vila ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 12:59:54 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: Russ Massey CC: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] Allure, Power Games and Tarrant the sex beast. Message-ID: <26E39621D63@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I can always tell the British fans. They're the only people who actually blame the script writer, rather than taking everything as-seen as *fact*. I can't stand Ben Steed scripts and I don't like Tanith Lee much either. Let's stop judging characters based on this junk and get back to Myer's Briggs. Vick The INTP you hate. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 08:01:07 -0500 From: Harriet Monkhouse <101637.2064@compuserve.com> To: "Blake's 7 (Lysator)" Subject: Re: [B7L] Re: Constructive Criticism Message-ID: <199902250801_MC2-6BCB-5DE0@compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Russ wrote: >Let me see, Harriet, Harriet... > >Shortish, curly dark hair, bubbly personality? You're sure you're not thinking of David Walsh? Oh no, I don't think he has curly hair either... Harriet ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 05:15:59 PST From: "Rob Clother" To: blakes7@lysator.liu.se Subject: [B7L] . Message-ID: <19990225131559.22195.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-type: text/plain >I don't like Tanith Lee much either. Too right. The bloody fascist. -- Rob ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:06:08 GMT0BST From: "VJC" To: "Rob Clother" CC: B7 list Subject: Re: [B7L] . Message-ID: <26F541866B3@OU20.nwservers.iso.port.ac.uk> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > >I don't like Tanith Lee much either. > > > Too right. The bloody fascist. Well now. I hope we can be friends now that we share some common ground. What Myers Briggs type are you? Vick > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1999 14:24:52 -0000 From: "Julie Horner" To: Subject: Re:[B7L]Allure, Power Games and Tarrant the sex beast Message-ID: <01be60ca$9b744060$170201c0@pc23.Fishnet> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Russ replying to mistral >>Well, I've just done one from each, but if you want a replacement for >>Power, I personally think that his scenes with Vena in Headhunter scorch the >>film, >Eh? Vena is 'Muller's woman' isn't she? Have I been making coffee >during crucial scenes again? I don't recall anything remotely >scorching. All I recall is a knowing snigger when she said that her relationship with Muller is purely recreational. If he does flirt at all in this scene I think it is just to be polite. It doesn't scorch to me and I am sure I would notice any heat generated by this Alpha. I have heard people say that he looks embarassed when she makes a come-on to him but again, I can't say I noticed that either. >>And as for throwing his masculinity around, he tries it with >>Jenna in ep three. Don't tell me you don't see it; I won't believe you. >No, I recognise that okay. And Jenna sees it exactly for what it is. He's >not interested in her as a woman, at least not specifically, he's simply >attempting to intimidate her with his masculinity. Not interested? What about that look in "Trial" when Jenna tells him to "Suggest something". He might not have an undying passion for her but I think he would be interested in a "recreational" relationship. Julie -------------------------------- End of blakes7-d Digest V99 Issue #82 *************************************