From: Mats Persson <map@ida.liu.se> Date: Wed, 9 Jun 93 18:13:57 +0200 Subject: Archives The mails in this mailinglist have been archived on ftp.lysator.liu.se in directory pub/europa in file d-1993-May /Mats ----- From: Mats Persson <map@ida.liu.se> Date: Sat, 19 Jun 93 21:14:40 +0200 Subject: Europa List Keith Rogers wrote: >I submitted a request to be put on the Europa mailing list. I sent it >to europa-request@lysator.liu.se a few days ago after I discovered its >existence from this group's FAQ. Is the list operator on holiday? >Does the list still live? Does anybody on the Net play Europa? Yes, the list still lives, but has been a little quiet the last weeks. >I'm starting my first game in it, Scorched Earth as the Germans, and >am groping for any info which might help me out since I'm a rank >novice at war games while my oponant has played several of the Europa >modules plus lots of SL and ASL. I feel like a sheep going to the >slaughter house... My advice to you for the Germans is: 1. Kill as many Russians as you can. 2. If the Russians are in low density in an area, FORWARD! 3. Beware of counterattacks in areas with lots of Russians. And an additional advice for the novice German is: put at least one division in every stack. This will save your trucks, engineers, Me 109s, and other small regiments and battalions. I started a new Scorched Earth game with some friends two weeks ago. Currently in the Aug I turn the Germans have one panzer corps in the replacement pool, due to my counterattacks as the Russian. The Germans have already lost 42 armor replacement points, but the Russian have also taken heavy losses. /Mats Persson ----- Date: Tue, 29 Jun 93 11:24:54 EDT From: viktor@mgr.hjf.org (Viktor Kaufmann) Subject: Leningrad Scenario Yes, this is the scenario which was to be used for the Europa tournament at Origins (but which, according to a postcard I received yesterday, is now cancelled). My brother and I played it for the first time last week, and we replayed it twice. The first time, Riga fell on July 1, and Talinn held out until August 1. Leningrad was never threatened, as the advancing Axis forces couldn't break out into the Leningrad MD. The second time, Riga fell on June II, but Talinn would have held until about September I (the German infantry was seriously bogged down trying to eliminate encircled and bypassed units, and the armor got itself into serious trouble). My question is, does the Axis have a chance here? What am I missing? Can they get anywhere near Leningrad by the September II turn? As far as I can tell, the Axis will never reach Leningrad in 1941. Thanks Viktor ----- Date: Tue, 6 Jul 93 09:03:28 EDT From: viktor@mgr.hjf.org (Viktor Kaufmann) Subject: Leningrad Scenario Hmmm. Apparently, I made the mistaken assumption that everyone subscribes to Europa magazine, so when I talked about the Leningrad scenario, I confused a couple of people, who had no way of knowing what it is. I will send out a summary of that scenario in the next couple of days, when I have more time. But, to answer my own question, apparently the Leningrad scenario is stacked against the Germans. When I played Scorched Earth at Origins, there was lots of room to flank the defenses, and none exists in the scenario. But, for all of you who have been waiting for Second Front, at Origins they announced that it will be out in 3 months. Winston said, "I wouldn't have printed the maps if Second Front wasn't nearly complete." Winter War was nominated for Best Game of '93 (lost to Hacker, by Steve Jackson Games). Victor Hauser and Arthur (forgot his last name, but he did the maps) were playing a Second Front demo at the convention. They were using some new air rules which look very nice, but which aren't certain to be included in the final version. (I don't know most of the air rules they were using, but they certainly simplified the air phase. Things seem to be more points-based (offense, defense), and not unit-based). In our game of Scorched Earth, I discovered, as commander of the Moscow and Western MDs, that it is a Bad Thing to stay in one place too long. At one point, around Minsk, I decided that I couldn't retreat far enough, so I would stick around one more turn (I hadn't lost many units the prior turn). Big mistake. My whole line was wiped off the map and/or surrounded. Now there were only 20 divisions keeping the Germans from the Moscow defenses. They held (fortunately), and we threw our tanks into the Valdai hills Northwest of Moscow to hold that part of the line. We then successfully rebuilt most of our central front losses, and prepared to wipe out the advancing motorized units of Army Group Center. We ended the game there, after the September I German turn, since all (except the AGC commander) agreed that the Russian counter-attack would have stopped AGC to freeze outside Moscow in December. A quick note: The auction at Origins this year was a buyers' market. Wacht am Rhein could be obtained for under $100 (punched), War in the Pacific for $135 (punched). These games normally sell for around $200 (punched). Scorched Earth (mint, _not_ the 1.5 edition) $30. Crimea went for $26 Operation Typhoon went for $120 Gettysburg (AH, 1958 (square grid)) went for $30 There was no bottom to this market. Viktoras Kaufmann ----- Date: Wed, 7 Jul 93 15:56:14 +0200 From: (Chris Scogings) <cscoging@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za> Subject: New guy seeks help Hello I am new to Europa (I only have Fire in the East). Could some kind old-timer tell me how I subscribe to Europa magazine, where to buy games, any other useful/interesting information? Thanks Chris ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Chris Scogings Voice: (27) 331 955645 Computer Science Dept Fax: (27) 331 955599 University of Natal Pietermaritzburg E-Mail:cscoging@unpcs1.cs.unp.ac.za ---------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Subject: Italian OB Date: Wed, 07 Jul 93 10:09:20 -0700 From: "Dupsyob" <rholmes@DHVX10.CSUDH.EDU> Howdy, I was wondering if GDW or GRD has published an order of battle for the Italians during the early war period, say up to 1943 or so. Thanks for the help. Rod Holmes | Once you pull the pin from mister rholmes@dhvx10.csudh.edu | Grenade he is no longer your friend. ----- From: krogers@moons.sim.es.com (Keith Rogers) Subject: Leningrad Scenario Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 12:13:51 -0600 (MDT) Viktor Kaufmann writes: > The second time, Riga fell on June II, but Talinn >would have held until about September I (the German infantry was seriously >bogged down trying to eliminate encircled and bypassed units, and the armor >got itself into serious trouble). Let me guess, they ran around lots of Soviet units to "bag" them only to find out they were out of supply next turn and running for their lives (at half MPs) to get back into supply. >My question is, does the Axis have a chance here? What am I missing? >Can they get anywhere near Leningrad by the September II turn? As far as >I can tell, the Axis will never reach Leningrad in 1941. I'm not even close to a good source on your question as I'm just starting my first game of SE but I have skimmed many years of ETO issues. I can only recall one case, the Origins game of, umm forgot the year, in which the Axis ever actually took Leningrad. In that case the German side was demonically possessed and hell bent on taking it and threw everything available at it. Most of Army Group Center went up there as did 95% (!) of the Luftwaffe and all reserves. All other fronts engaged in holding actions for the most part. The result of that game was that the Axis did indeed take Leningrad in (Nov, I think) '41 but was so weakened in doing so that they were going to get swept out again after a time. Of course the game was never finished, as the Origins ones never are due to mosterous amounts of time is takes to play SE, but it was generally conceeded the Axis would never be able to hold the city for very long, much less until '44. The comments also showed that the Soviets were taken by complete surprise that this would be the Axis's strategy and were thrown off balance for a few turns by the complete dedication right from the start of the Axis to take Leningrad. They thought it might be a feint for a while. I doubt you could take LG in 41, if ever, given a Soviet player who expects that push; the terrain is just too defender friendly and AEC is virtually always nullified. Perhaps some others have personal experience here. I toyed with the idea of a "go for Leningrad" strategy for this game I'm setting up but decided not to in the end. I'm usinging the more standard "go for the Valdai hills, then to Moskva in '42" plan instead. One interesting difference between my readings and what my opponent is doing is that it is (or at least was) fashionable for the Soviets to use the "Run Away" defense in which he trades space for unit survival and falls back a long ways into the interior before making a serious stand. My opponent has deployed his defenses as far forward as possible and appears to be making Minsk and Kiev as unassailable as possible. I have no experience to rely upon as to how sound this defense is. I do know that I'll have most of his best armor stacks U-2 by his Jun II turn but I'm going to be taking until at least Jul II to mop things up right on the very front lines before I can even start pushing further without seriously jepordizing my c/m units' supply lines. He really has made a very forward defense. I'm hoping it'll prove to be brittle and give me liscense to roam behind it almost at will assuming I can shatter it and eliminate the massive amounts of units I'm going against in the process. Any comments on how I should/could procede are welcome. Keith Rogers krogers@moons.sim.es.com ----- From: krogers@moons.sim.es.com (Keith Rogers) Subject: Leningrad Scenario Date: Wed, 7 Jul 1993 15:57:01 -0600 (MDT) Viktor Kaufmann writes: >Hmmm. Apparently, I made the mistaken assumption that everyone subscribes >to Europa magazine, so when I talked about the Leningrad scenario, I >confused a couple of people, who had no way of knowing what it is. I will >send out a summary of that scenario in the next couple of days, when I have >more time. Oops, looks like I shot my mouth (or fingers) off too soon again. I thought you were playing SE and going for Leningrad. I wasn't aware that there's a Leningrad scenario. >But, to answer my own question, apparently the Leningrad scenario is stacked >against the Germans. When I played Scorched Earth at Origins, there was lots >of room to flank the defenses, and none exists in the scenario. This wouldn't surprise me since SE in general seems rather stacked in favor of the Soviets; things like it being impossible to take Minsk in the historical amount of time (6 days), c/m units can't match how far they penetrated in reality without being out of supply, etc. >In our game of Scorched Earth, I discovered, as commander of the Moscow and >Western MDs, that it is a Bad Thing to stay in one place too long. At one >point, around Minsk, I decided that I couldn't retreat far enough, so I would >stick around one more turn (I hadn't lost many units the prior turn). Big >mistake. My whole line was wiped off the map and/or surrounded. Very interesting given my opponent is making a big stand at Minsk. I'll have to see if I can duplicate your bad experience for him :-) > Now there >were only 20 divisions keeping the Germans from the Moscow defenses. They >held (fortunately), and we threw our tanks into the Valdai hills >Northwest of Moscow to hold that part of the line. How? That was an amazing piece of defense on your part and/or a poor piece of offense on AGC's part. Was AGC too preoccupied with mopping up the units at Minsk that they couldn't smash through those 20 divs? The Valdai hills don't give you all that much advantage with only a -1 die mod for rough terrain. > We then successfully rebuilt most of >our central front losses, and prepared to wipe out the advancing motorized >units of Army Group Center. We ended the game there, after the September I >German turn, since all (except the AGC commander) agreed that the Russian >counter-attack would have stopped AGC to freeze outside Moscow in December. Looks like your game was pretty reminescent of reality with the huge bag at Minsk but failing to gain Moscow before winter set in. Keith Rogers krogers@moons.sim.es.com ----- Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 07:47:23 EDT From: viktor@mgr.hjf.org (Viktor Kaufmann) Subject: Origins SE Well, after losing all my Russian units except 20 divisions, I just staggered them to create non-overrunnable islands exerting zones of control to slow the Germans down. I guess I should mention that in those 20 divisions, I did _not_ include about 10 divisions of armor. However, those 10 were _all_ thrown into the Valdai Hills, as I hadn't fortified them (I was playing SE for the first time, although I have played other Europa games). Further, the AGC commander, after watching AGN get its motorized non-armor units get crushed by the Northern Front commander in a viscious counter-attack, was rather gun-shy about extending his armor too far out in front of his infantry, so, as a result, Moscow held. In our second game (we quit the first one after one day, having gotten to the Russian part of the the Sept I turn), the Northern Soviet commander built his defense by putting all his Russian divisions in swamp, wood, or forest hexes, and non in clear terrain. The AGN commander promptly threw his armor down the road, stacked with trucks, and caused the immediate activation of the Leningrad reserves on the June II Soviet turn. This game ended on Aug I, with AGN 3 hexes outside Leningrad to the south of the city, AGC well beyond Minsk, and AGS stalled at the front, although the Russians were just beginning their retreat to the river line. There was no doubt that Leningrad would have fallen in this game, and that it would have been very hard to retake, possibly crippling the Soviet war machine (there are many RPs which are generated by Leningrad). I don't know if I mentioned, but GR/D was selling "War Bonds" for Second Front. Basically, these are pre-release coupons which you can exchange for a copy of Second Front upon its release. They were available at Origins only, and cost $85, so we now know what a minimum price for SF will be. Look for it in about 3 months. Viktor Kaufmann viktor@mgr.hjf.org ----- Date: Thu, 8 Jul 93 07:58:13 -0700 From: graham@cs.washington.edu (Stephen Graham) Subject: E-mail for GR/D Anyone have the GEnie address for GR/D? Given that, it should be possible to get e-mail to them from the Internet by using address@genie.geis.com Steve Graham graham@cs.washington.edu