-----
From: Mats Persson <map@ida.liu.se>
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 93 16:37:13 +0200
Subject: Welcome
Welcome to this new mailing list for Europa players!
I don't know if this list is needed but I'd like
to try it. There is not much discussion about Europa
on rec.games.board.
The mail address for this list is europa@lysator.liu.se
Currently we have 18 persons on the list.
I am Mats Persson, one of the creators of Nordic Europa
Association. You can find my home address inside the
cover of The Europa Magazine.
/Mats Persson
-----
From: Kurt Schroeder <kschroe2@ua.d.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Welcome
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 93 12:56:01 CDT
^
^
^ Welcome to this new mailing list for Europa players!
^ I don't know if this list is needed but I'd like
^ to try it. There is not much discussion about Europa
^ on rec.games.board.
Thanks for establishing the mailing list. I will try to post some
information in the form of data about the various games.
Kurt Schroeder
kschroe2@ua.d.umn.edu
-----
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 93 22:25:41 CST
From: caleb!europapoll@relay.EU.net (Jim Pritchett)
Subject: Hello and FITE question
Hi, I am new to this mailing list, so I'll try to get something started here.
How about a simple poll? The subject is very controversial, but the question
is simple. (Usually people are adamant about their opinions on this one.)
How do you rate the play balance of FITE/Scorched Earth?
a) The Germans have an overwhelming advantage.
b) The Germans have a small advantage.
c) It is balanced evenly.
d) The Soviets have a small advantage.
e) The Soviets have an overwhelming advantage.
I'll vote first. I vote e.
Jim Pritchett
UUCP: rwsys.lonestar.org!caleb!europapoll
or utacfd.uta.edu!rwsys!caleb!europapoll
-----
From: Kurt Schroeder <kschroe2@ua.d.umn.edu>
Subject: no subject (file transmission)
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 93 10:15:31 CDT
^ How do you rate the play balance of FITE/Scorched Earth?
^
^ a) The Germans have an overwhelming advantage.
^ b) The Germans have a small advantage.
^ c) It is balanced evenly.
^ d) The Soviets have a small advantage.
^ e) The Soviets have an overwhelming advantage.
^
^ I'll vote first. I vote e.
^ Jim Pritchett
^ UUCP: rwsys.lonestar.org!caleb!europapoll
^ or utacfd.uta.edu!rwsys!caleb!europapoll
I'd vote somewhere between d and e. Of course, the next question to be
asked, assuming agreement on this first one, is:
Is this lack of balance a problem?
Several issues enter in here.
1. The Soviets won the real war by a long shot. This would argue that the
game should be unbalanced, at least in the long run. Of course, should the
Germans (or, more accurately, the Axis :-) have a chance in the 'short run',
e.g. through Fall 1942, and do they in the game?
2. This assumes that people who play a game as complicated as FITE/SE/U are
interested primarily in simulation of historical events, rather than in
game-ability or play value. Is this true of the people reading this mail
list? What is the desired balance between historicity and playability. My
own feeling is that the game system (Europa) and scenarios (FITE/SE/U) should
be able to accurately portray the choices available at the
operational/strategic level while allowing the players (who take the roles of
theatre commanders) to make operational and strategic choices different than
those chosen by the historical characters.
On our own operational level, I am unsure as to how to submit something to
this mail list. I am simply responding to the above message by Jim P. Is
that the procedure to be followed, or should I be mailing this message back
to lysator, or what? Jim, if this message reaches only you, could you
forward it to the right place? I have never used one of these mailing lists
before, and some instructions (perhaps posted to rec.board.games also) would
probably increase participation on the part of neophytes such as myself.
Thnx.
Kurt Schroeder
kschroe2@ua.d.umn.edu
-----
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 93 20:52:04 CST
From: caleb!jdp@relay.EU.net (Jim Pritchett)
Subject: Re: Hello and FITE question
Note: I sent this reply direct, but I later decided that the list might be
interested, so I am sending it there also.
Graham_Arts@mindlink.bc.ca wrote:
> 1. The Soviets won the real war by a long shot. This would argue that the
> game should be unbalanced, at least in the long run. Of course, should the
> Germans (or, more accurately, the Axis :-) have a chance in the 'short run',
> e.g. through Fall 1942, and do they in the game?
The Soviet victory implies that the Germans need to win before the Soviet
war machine can get significant amounts of materiel into the conflict.
Alternatively, the Germans need to reach the end of the vast Soviet supply
of potential soldiers (note: they came a lot closer to this point than they
ever admitted. The Soviets lied about the population of their cities for
decades after the war.)
>
> 2. This assumes that people who play a game as complicated as FITE/SE/U are
> interested primarily in simulation of historical events, rather than in
> game-ability or play value. Is this true of the people reading this mail
> list? What is the desired balance between historicity and playability. My
> own feeling is that the game system (Europa) and scenarios (FITE/SE/U) should
> be able to accurately portray the choices available at the
> operational/strategic level while allowing the players (who take the roles of
> theatre commanders) to make operational and strategic choices different than
> those chosen by the historical characters.
This varies according to the players.
>
> On our own operational level, I am unsure as to how to submit something to
> this mail list. I am simply responding to the above message by Jim P. Is
> that the procedure to be followed, or should I be mailing this message back
> to lysator, or what? Jim, if this message reaches only you, could you
> forward it to the right place? I have never used one of these mailing lists
> before, and some instructions (perhaps posted to rec.board.games also) would
> probably increase participation on the part of neophytes such as myself.
You should post directly to the mailing list address (i.e. europa@lysator.liu.se)
I'm not sure where replies to the list go. That should work, but it may not.
If it goes to the mailing list, you should see it. If not, post it to the ml
yourself, or drop me a note and I can forward it for you.
Jim Pritchett
UUCP: rwsys.lonestar.org!caleb!jdp
or utacfd.uta.edu!rwsys!caleb!jdp
-----
From: Mats Persson <map@ida.liu.se>
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 93 18:39:59 +0200
Subject: Re: FITE question
> How do you rate the play balance of FITE/Scorched Earth?
Between c and d in 1941/42. The whole game is probably e,
but I have never played it to the end.
I think there should be better victory conditions.
My suggestion is: count the number of cities/city hexes owned
each year, in both Oct I and Oct II, and Apr I and Apr II.
Then compare this number to some average number. The Germans
get the +/- difference as victory points.
With these victory conditions the Soviets must choose between
saving his army or try to hold cities.
/Mats
-----
From: Mats Persson <map@ida.liu.se>
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 93 18:42:12 +0200
Subject: TEM 6
Does anybody have issue number 6 of The Europa Magazine?
I need the OB for the British Pioneers.
/Mats
-----
Date: Fri, 30 Apr 93 11:16:00 -0700
From: graham@cs.washington.edu (Stephen Graham)
Subject: Re: FITE question
>I think there should be better victory conditions.
>My suggestion is: count the number of cities/city hexes owned
>each year, in both Oct I and Oct II, and Apr I and Apr II.
>Then compare this number to some average number. The Germans
>get the +/- difference as victory points.
>
>With these victory conditions the Soviets must choose between
>saving his army or try to hold cities.
Better would be to show why the Soviets need to hold certain areas.
There should be some importance to holding cities, but most Soviet
industry is missing from the game.
For instance, there's the entire Donbass industrial region, including
most of the iron ore & smelting available as well as additional factories
not shown. The southern runaway defense might change if losing the
area meant sharply reduced armor, artillery and air production.
Overall, though, I don't particularly care for victory points. Most
games of FiTE/SE end in one side or the other quitting, effectively
surrendering. The other games end under similar conditions, it
becomes clear to the players who has won and by what margin. In the
case of First to Fight or Balkan front, where the loser is guaranteed,
the Poles and the Allies should be able to judge for themselves how
well they played. How much did the Germans pay for their victory?
Since we know when the campaigns ended historically, VPs for time
are somewhat useful, but a Greek player still holding out at the
beginning of June knows that he's won.
-----
Date: Mon, 3 May 93 08:47:28 EDT
From: viktor@mgr.hjf.org (Viktor Kaufmann)
Subject: Origins
Are there many people on this list who are going to be going to Origins,
and participating in Europafest? Just idle curiousity.
Anyway, anyone here play First to Fight? I played it with two other people.
Although Poland collapsed much more quickly than historically, we lost tons
of those motorized ants, and therefore lost the scenario. (Hmm, guess I
should have mentioned, I was one of two German players.) The Southern
commander managed to let one of his stacks get surrounded and destroyed,
losing a couple of motorized divisions in the process. I can't say that
he cost us the game, although his grind-it-out, World War I style of play
isn't well suited for the Germans. I must say, that this was a fun game.
Maybe this summer I will be able to find space to play wargames. I
haven't been able to play any wargame for ages :-(
Viktor
-----
From: "Spider" <AKG@CU.NIH.GOV>
Date: Mon, 03 May 1993 22:11:04 EDT
Subject: Europa
== Forwarded Mail ==
MAIL FROM AKG MONDAY 05/03/93 10:10:21 P.M.
To: AKG
From: "Spider" <AKG>
Date: Mon, 03 May 1993 22:10:17 EDT
Subject: Europa
I was the Polish player in the game of First to Fight that Viktor
mentioned. Certainly it was not Viktor's fault (well, maybe a little) that
the German's lost in victory points.
I've always liked the maxim "The best defense is a good offense." The
player playing the Southern forces for the Germans was not aware of my
inclination, and proceeded in a rather lax manner. His strategy was to
build as powerful a stack as possible, and attack with multiples of these
stacks against the strongest points in my line, in the hopes of destroying
my powerful units early in the game.
This would be a good point to mention my setup. The Polish have many
of their good units either cut off or simply destroyed in the first moments
of the invasion. The Northern Germans, however, are rather weak; and the
Polish have a good line of forts facing them. So rather than try to defend
a line, I used weak divisions in the forts and the intervening swamps to
bring the Northern advance to a mind-numbing crawl. (The North has about
as much armour as the Polish.) In the South, however, I stacked my most
mobile cavalry and armour (what little I had) into mid-size stacks. To
solidify my line, I brought up the units from the North to bolster any weak
spots and roads. The Germans, in their carelessness and confidence in the
Polish's lack of any choice other than to stand there and take it, left
gaps in his line. As a result, two of these stacks of mine shot through
his line, destroyed an air unit, and attacked two of his stacks of
'leftovers'.
The German, in making ultra-powerful stacks, was left with stacks of
five or six 1-10 mobile units. So a stack of say, two 5-6 cav divisions, a
1-8 artillery, a 3-5 armour division, and a 1-8 armour regement was enough
to demolish such a stack. And whammo, I've got some 15-18 victory points.
with the air thrown in, and the other stack, that was like 58 vp's in one
turn. Vik made a similar mistake in the North. He left a gap so that,
during my mechanized movement phase, I sent a 1-8 armour through onto an
airfield with three Ju-88's. One escaped, that's another 50 vp's. It was
these mistakes that cost them the game. Sure, I lost alot of units and
ended up losing Warsaw early, but even that was bad luck on my part. When
Polish units are cut off, they roll to see if they surrender. Of nine
stacks of units which I rolled for, only one survived, and it was a weak
stack. In addition, the Souther player managed to get his armour, three
corps worth, cut off by my Polish zoc's. I had better than 50% chance on
three attacks to destroy a stack of 6re's of armour, and got none of 'em.
Then my units got cut off by the Northern player, who finally drudged
through my line of forts and zoc's and cut off most of my units, which
conveniently, and promptly, died.
When all was said and done (the Germans decided to get those
horror-bombing vp's rather than take a virtually defenseless Warsaw), the
only reason I really got the Strategic victory was because I got lucky with
one last attack, which allowed one of my border units to escape into
Lithuania.
All in all, it's a good game. Even though it seems hopeless with the
Polish, and a keen eyed German would never have allowed what happened to
occur (Viktor tried not to interfere with the Southern player's moves, he'd
never screw up that badly. In fact, he found it rather amusing.) it is
still fun to try nifty things with the Polish. (I've yet to try the
Germans.)
Arius V. Kaufmann
AKG@NIHCU I'm not politically incorrect,
AKG@CU.NIH.GOV I'm politically challenged.
-----
Date: Wed, 12 May 93 07:58:56 EDT
From: viktor@mgr.hjf.org (Viktor Kaufmann)
Subject: FITE Player Aid Kit
Does anyone have a copy of the Fire in the East Player Aid Kit which
they would be willing to sell?
One other thing, does anyone who is subscribed to this list also have access
to the Europa forum on GENIE? It would be interesting to see some of the
things they talk about there posted to this list.
Viktor
-----
Subject: Europa game titles
Date: Thu, 13 May 93 13:21:07 PDT
From: Gerald Steffler <gwsteff@pbhya.PacBell.COM>
I'm looking for a concise list of all Europa games published by
GDW and GRD(?).
Is there a FAQ for Europa? I believe that the game system could
benefit from one. I've no idea which vendors system to purchase and
play. I understand GRD is re-issuing/re-working the GDW games. Are
the game names the same?
Thanks in advance.
Merciless1
-----
From: Johan Herber <johhe>
Date: Fri, 14 May 93 12:20:51 +0200
Subject: Europa game titles
By GDW:
Case White Polish Campaign Sep 1939 (Nonstandard time scale)
Narvik Norwegian Campaign Apr 1940 (Nonstandard unit and time scale)
Fall of France Western Campaign May 1940-
Marita-Merkur Balkan Campaign Dec 1940-Jun 41
Western Desert Desert War Nov 1940-
Torch French North Africa Nov 1942-Jun 43 (Continuation of WD)
Near East Iraq and Persia Nov 1940- (Add on to WD, no Soviets)*
Fire in the East Eastern Front Jun 1941-Mar 42 (Older title: Drang nach Osten)
Scorched Earth Eastern Front Apr 1942-Dec 44 (Continuation of FitE,
Older title: Unentschieden)**
Spain and Portugal Hypothetical German or Allied invasions.***
* Cannot be played by itself, WD needed.
** Cannot be played by itself, FitE needed.
*** Cannot be played by itself, FoF or Torch needed.
By GRD:
First to Fight Polish Campaign Rework of Case White.
Balkan Front Balkan Campaign Rework of Marita-Merkur
A Winter War Russo-Finnish War 39-40
I hope this list is complete (it is all from memory).
/Johan
-----
Date: Fri, 14 May 93 12:14:51 BST
From: kh <kh@dcs.gla.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Europa game titles
> I hope this list is complete (it is all from memory).
> By GDW:
Their Finest Hour Operation Sealion Hypothetical 1940
German Invasion of Britain
Jul-Nov 1940(?)
The Urals Eastern Front FiTE/SE Expansion
I've also seen "Africa Orientale" mentioned (Italian West African
campaigns presumably), but it doesn't seem to be a boxed game.
Maybe it was a "roll-your-own" mini in The Europa Magazine?
> By GRD (to appear "soon"):
Second Front Allied Western Campaigns Jul 1943- May 1945?
Is there any news of this yet?!
Kevin
-----
Date: Fri, 14 May 93 08:02:46 -0700
From: graham@cs.washington.edu (Stephen Graham)
Subject: Re: Europa game titles
>> By GRD (to appear "soon"):
>
>Second Front Allied Western Campaigns Jul 1943- May 1945?
>
>Is there any news of this yet?!
Second round of playtesting should commence later this month. We've
received black&white maps and the OB in the past week. All we need
are the rules and we can get underway. Projected release at Christmas 93.
Steve Graham
graham@cs.washington.edu
-----
From: Mats Persson <map@ida.liu.se>
Date: Fri, 14 May 93 14:27:44 +0200
Subject: Re: Europa game titles
>Second Front Allied Western Campaigns Jul 1943- May 1945?
>Is there any news of this yet?!
In the Europa Magazine #30, Rick Gayler says that the maps are printed
very soon, and the counters and rules are being worked on. The OB is
almost finished.
/Mats