From tariqas-approval Sun Sep 17 04:20:40 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22830; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 14:20:45 -0400 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22808; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 14:20:43 -0400 Received: from linda.teleport.com (bergner@linda.teleport.com [192.108.254.12]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id LAA06163 for ; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 11:20:42 -0700 From: Paul Bergner Message-Id: <199509171820.LAA06163@desiree.teleport.com> Subject: Re: Ibn al-Arabi on obtaining knowledge of God To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 11:20:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: from "Steve H Rose" at Sep 17, 95 11:58:22 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 2932 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > > Assalamu alaikum. > > On Sat, 16 Sep 1995, Fred Rice wrote: > > > > > > > > > The following is a short excerpt from Ibn al-Arabi's writings on obtaining > > knowledge of Allah. > > > > Ibn al-Arabi wrote: > > > > ============================================================================ > > Two ways lead to knowledge of God. There is no third way. The > > person who declares God's Unity in some other way follows > > authority in his declaration. > > > > The first way is the way of unveiling. It is an incontrovertible > > knowledge which is actualized through unveiling and which man finds > > in himself. He receives no obfuscations along with it and is not > > able to repel it. He knows no proof for it by which it is supported > > except what he finds in himself. [...] This kind of knowledge may > > also be actualized through a divine self-disclosure given to its > > possessors, who are the messengers, the prophets, and some of the > > friends. > > > > The second way is the way of reflection and reasoning (_istidlal_) > > through rational demonstration (_burhan `aqli_). This way is lower > > than the first way, since he who bases his consideration can be > > visited by obfuscations which detract from his proof, and only with > > difficulty can he remove them. > > ============================================================================ > > > > Translated by William C. Chittick, from Ibn al-Arabi's "Futuhat al-makkiyya" > > (I 319.27), quoted from "The Sufi Path of Knowledge" by W. C. Chittick, > > p. 169. > > > > > > > > I'm afraid I must expose my amazing presumptiousness by disagreeing with > Ibn al-Arabi, but I have no evidence that the two ways that he expresses > are the only possible ways. Hinduism, for example, suggests a number of > ways based upon good works, love, rational inquiry, inner knowing, > experience etc. The experience of my own path, as well as that of many > people that I have known, does not fall into these two neat categories. > > Yours, > > habib rose > > Asalaamu alaikum, Habib. There's not necessarily a contradiction in what you say and what Ibn Arabi says. We do our practices, whatever their nature and source of revelation. But our -knowledge- of the unity of the divine comes either through reasoning, or, better, yet, through direct knowledge, which Ibn Arabi calls "unveiling." The curtain is drawn back, we no longer believe, but know directly. There's nothing left that is theoretical and there is no denying what is within us, and there is nothing to doubt. It is no longer even a matter of religion or non-religion, it si simply what is real, more real than anything in the changing world. All else (other than reason or unveiling) is not knowledge, but depends on authority, i.e. we believe in unity because someone told us about it or we read it in a book and believe that, but we don't -know- it. Peace Mustafa From tariqas-approval Sun Sep 17 10:43:20 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01769; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 14:43:22 -0400 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01744; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 14:43:20 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA15572 for tariqas@world.std.com; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 14:43:20 -0400 Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 14:43:20 -0400 From: ASHA101@aol.com Message-Id: <950917144320_21685508@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Meeting Khidr in the modern age (fwd) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear Fred; you wrote <> Somehow, this reminds me of the time i was driving a taxi cab in Chicago. A friend asked me how I found my customers, I said that I just looked on to see if any one was signaling me. Then he asked if I ever missed any one. Confidently I said, "No." My friend pointed out the obvious, i.e. how would you know if you missed anyone. I remember to this day how shocked I was at the thought that I wouldn't know if I missed anyone and (as silly as it sounds) have troubled over it ever since. Now, as unreasonalbe as it sounds, your answer makes me think that I really would know, down deep. and so, this morning I stop to think of all the times I have not realized who I have met and I can feel the gaps in my living. thanks for the reminder Asha From tariqas-approval Sun Sep 17 10:43:40 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01947; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 14:43:43 -0400 Received: from mail06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01932; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 14:43:42 -0400 Received: by mail06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA26661; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 14:43:40 -0400 Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 14:43:40 -0400 From: ASHA101@aol.com Message-Id: <950917144340_21685733@mail06.mail.aol.com> To: lilyan@u.washington.edu, tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: From the back of the Niu Jie Mosque . . . (fwd) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Dear lilly, The poem was very beautiful and reminded me. Also, I thought of the question of the place and work of the feminine in Sufism today. Certainly there is much clinging to the old traditions but I cannot help but think that the world is evolving as the vision is created and actuated by the holy Artist. Perhaps the work is not so new, perhaps, but certainly the face is new, and the awareness of the message is new. What is this message? and what does it have to do with the old traditions, might they be changed without disrespecting them? Is it possible that some of our shayks and pir's and qutubs and everything that represents the masculine in the hierarchy and in the metaphysics we choose has some new dimension of consciousness to it? As a woman, as a sufi, what do you think, how does your tariqah deal with this From tariqas-approval Sun Sep 17 11:31:00 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09670; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 17:32:46 -0400 Received: from gatekeeper.mcimail.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA09641; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 17:32:44 -0400 Received: from mailgate.mcimail.com (mailgate.mcimail.com [166.38.40.3]) by gatekeeper.mcimail.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id VAA17088; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 21:30:44 GMT Received: from mcimail.com by mailgate.mcimail.com id ab21017; 17 Sep 95 21:31 WET Date: Sun, 17 Sep 95 16:31 EST From: Mike Moore <0007106488@mcimail.com> To: tariqas Subject: Re: Pre-Emineent Tariqas/Saints (fwd) Message-Id: <80950917213108/0007106488PJ3EM@MCIMAIL.COM> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Fouad said: <>. Otherwise your confusion will keep increasing. >> This must be true. As I have half-heartedly read some of these rather heady conversations I have become more confused. How could I ever be a sufi if I did not know what a 'silsila' was? Such elaborate constructions! Has there ever been a Sufi with an IQ of less than 102? Has an angel ever been seen in 40 words or fewer? -Michael- From tariqas-approval Mon Sep 18 18:14:17 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00276; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 18:27:04 -0400 Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00250; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 18:27:01 -0400 Received: from localhost (darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.6.4/8.6.4) id IAA10508; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 08:26:59 +1000 Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 08:14:17 +1000 (EST) From: Fred Rice Subject: Re: Ibn al-Arabi on obtaining knowledge of God To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <199509171820.LAA06163@desiree.teleport.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum! I think I agree with what Mustafa says below... I think it is a matter of interpretation. It seems to me that the ways Habib speaks of (except "rational enquiry") are all different ways of knowing God through direct experience (which is the broad interpretation I give to "unveiling") so come under Ibn al-Arabi's "category" of unveiling -- but Allah knows best. Even among Sufis the path to direct knowledge can be different, as is shown in the different approaches among the different Sufi schools. An example of coming to knowledge about God in the modern age through rational enquiry is in Paul Davies' (a theoretical physicist) books like "The Mind of God." Completely through rational enquiry, the fact that if the laws of physics were only slightly different life would be impossible, leads Davies to the view that it is highly likely there must be an intelligent Creator who intended to make a universe with life in it. However, while this approach can lead to knowledge of the _existence_ of God, I don't think it can lead you to really knowing God in the way direct experience can, Allah knows best. Wassalam, Fred Rice On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Paul Bergner wrote: > > On Sat, 16 Sep 1995, Fred Rice wrote: > > > > > > The following is a short excerpt from Ibn al-Arabi's writings on obtaining > > > knowledge of Allah. > > > > > > Ibn al-Arabi wrote: > > > > > > ============================================================================ > > > Two ways lead to knowledge of God. There is no third way. The > > > person who declares God's Unity in some other way follows > > > authority in his declaration. > > > > > > The first way is the way of unveiling. It is an incontrovertible > > > knowledge which is actualized through unveiling and which man finds > > > in himself. He receives no obfuscations along with it and is not > > > able to repel it. He knows no proof for it by which it is supported > > > except what he finds in himself. [...] This kind of knowledge may > > > also be actualized through a divine self-disclosure given to its > > > possessors, who are the messengers, the prophets, and some of the > > > friends. > > > > > > The second way is the way of reflection and reasoning (_istidlal_) > > > through rational demonstration (_burhan `aqli_). This way is lower > > > than the first way, since he who bases his consideration can be > > > visited by obfuscations which detract from his proof, and only with > > > difficulty can he remove them. > > > ============================================================================ > > > > > > Translated by William C. Chittick, from Ibn al-Arabi's "Futuhat al-makkiyya" > > > (I 319.27), quoted from "The Sufi Path of Knowledge" by W. C. Chittick, > > > p. 169. > > > > > > > I'm afraid I must expose my amazing presumptiousness by disagreeing with > > Ibn al-Arabi, but I have no evidence that the two ways that he expresses > > are the only possible ways. Hinduism, for example, suggests a number of > > ways based upon good works, love, rational inquiry, inner knowing, > > experience etc. The experience of my own path, as well as that of many > > people that I have known, does not fall into these two neat categories. > > > > Yours, > > > > habib rose > > > > > Asalaamu alaikum, Habib. > > There's not necessarily a contradiction in what you say and what Ibn Arabi > says. We do our practices, whatever their nature and source of revelation. > But our -knowledge- of the unity of the divine comes either through > reasoning, or, better, yet, through direct knowledge, which Ibn Arabi > calls "unveiling." The curtain is drawn back, we no longer believe, but > know directly. There's nothing left that is theoretical and there is no > denying what is within us, and there is nothing to doubt. It is no longer > even a matter of religion or non-religion, it si simply what is real, more > real than anything in the changing world. All else (other than reason or > unveiling) is not knowledge, but depends on authority, i.e. we believe in > unity because someone told us about it or we read it in a book and believe > that, but we don't -know- it. > > Peace > Mustafa From tariqas-approval Sun Sep 17 18:13:26 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08619; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 22:13:25 -0400 Received: from mail.nyc.pipeline.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08606; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 22:13:24 -0400 Received: from pipe4.nyc.pipeline.com (pipe4.nyc.pipeline.com [198.80.32.44]) by mail.nyc.pipeline.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id WAA13236 for ; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 22:13:28 -0400 From: Simon Bryquer Received: (sbryquer@localhost) by pipe4.nyc.pipeline.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) id WAA20986; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 22:13:26 -0400 Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 22:13:26 -0400 Message-Id: <199509180213.WAA20986@pipe4.nyc.pipeline.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: RE:Pre-eminent Bickering Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: I normally don't post, but with all due respect, stop this public bickering and carry on this dispute via private correpondence. It's obvious that you both come from different point of view and I assure you, I have seen this before, no matter how many words you will not convince each other. You both have knee-jerk reaction to each other's ideas and please don't respond with poses and parlance of seeking the TRUTH, essentially I reminds me of some of the birds in 'Conference of the Birds' --- talk talk and more talk yet no one wants to undertake the real voyage. It is obvious to me, I don't about some of the other members of this group, but this public display is ego driven, no matter what saintly excuse you use to appease your souls. I'm not interested in any reply, please, I do not want to be part of this. Best and I apologize to all who have to endure.... Salaams From tariqas-approval Sun Sep 17 20:07:48 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00834; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 00:07:50 -0400 Received: from dns.worldweb.net by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA00822; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 00:07:48 -0400 Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 00:07:48 -0400 Message-Id: <199509180407.AA00822@world.std.com> Received: from line104.worldweb.net by dns.worldweb.net with SMTP; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 0:09:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Sender: jmccaig@worldweb.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: James McCaig Subject: Re: Recommend a Sufi book ? (fwd) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: At 10:01 PM 9/16/95 +0059, you wrote: >From: olh@hyperback.com (Bob Olhsson) > >>Dear Fred, >> >>I would like to invite your friend to visit our bookdstore on the world wide >>web, or if s/he doesn't have a browser, we could send a list of our books. >> >How about the www address? > >Bob > >Bob Olhsson Audio | O tongue, thou art a >olh@hyperback.com | treasure without end. >P.O. Box 555 | And, O tongue, thou art also a >Novato, CA 94948-0555 | disease without remedy. >415.457.2620 | >415.456.1496 FAX | == Jelal'uddin Rumi == > > > Dear Bob, Thanks for asking. The address is http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi. Check us out. Maharaj James McCaig | Sufi Center of Washington Brotherhood/Sisterhood Representative | Keepers of Sufi Center Bookstore United States | http://guess.worldweb.net/sufi jmccaig@worldweb.net From tariqas-approval Sun Sep 17 20:15:31 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03946; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 00:15:33 -0400 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03939; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 00:15:31 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA15184 for tariqas@world.std.com; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 00:15:31 -0400 Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 00:15:31 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <950918001530_22135014@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Ibn Arabi text Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Greetings again. (finally back, resubscribed to Tariqas, after finding myself not receiving any more Tariqas postings since summertime). While in France I came across a work by Ibn'Arabi, Voyage vers le maitre de la puissance. The book is a translation of Risalat-ul-anwar fima yumnah sahib al-khalwa min al-asrar, BY WAY OF the English translation by Rabia Terri Harris, entitled, Journey to the Lord of Power. It is (c) 1081 by the Jerrahi Order of America. Would anyone know how I can locate the English (American) version of this text? Are there others? thank you. in peace, Jinavamsa From tariqas-approval Sun Sep 17 20:18:16 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07754; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 00:18:19 -0400 Received: from mail04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07630; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 00:18:17 -0400 Received: by mail04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id AAA10473 for tariqas@world.std.com; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 00:18:16 -0400 Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 00:18:16 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <950918001816_22136885@mail04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Ibn Arabi text Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: correction. the (c) 1081 should have read (c) 1981 in peace, Jinavamsa From tariqas-approval Sun Sep 17 16:56:29 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23014; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 02:56:35 -0400 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23007; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 02:56:31 -0400 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (bergner@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA25170 for ; Sun, 17 Sep 1995 23:56:30 -0700 From: Paul Bergner Message-Id: <199509180656.XAA25170@desiree.teleport.com> Subject: Re: Ibn Arabi text To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Sun, 17 Sep 1995 23:56:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <950918001530_22135014@mail02.mail.aol.com> from "Jinavamsa@aol.com" at Sep 18, 95 00:15:31 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 516 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > > While in France I came across a work by Ibn'Arabi, Voyage vers le maitre de > la puissance. The book is a translation of Risalat-ul-anwar fima yumnah sahib > al-khalwa min al-asrar, BY WAY OF the English translation by Rabia Terri > Harris, entitled, Journey to the Lord of Power. It is (c) 1081 by the > Jerrahi Order of America. > Would anyone know how I can locate the English (American) version of this > text? Are there others? Try Sufi Books in New York. 212-334-5212 FAX 212-334-5214 Peace Mustafa From tariqas-approval Mon Sep 18 00:31:34 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08375; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 04:31:35 -0400 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08369; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 04:31:34 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA28726 for tariqas@world.std.com; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 04:31:34 -0400 Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 04:31:34 -0400 From: Abdlqadir@aol.com Message-Id: <950918043132_102175368@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Pre-eminent Bickering Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: A On 09/17/95, Simon Bryquer (sbryquer@pipeline.com) stated: >I normally don't post, but with all due respect, stop this public >bickering and carry on this dispute via private correpondence. It's >obvious that you both come from different point of view and I assure >you, I have seen this before, no matter how many words you will not >convince each other. If Mr. Bryquer is refering to correspondances between myself and Mr. Hadaad, I would like to answer. To present differing views is not necessarily to "dispute." It has been my idea that this forum was a place to share differing perspectives, not just between private parties, but for the presumed benefit of those who might want to listen in. I am sorry that you are one who soesn't want to hear this type of discussion, and it is not my intention to inflict it upon you. >You both have knee-jerk reaction to each other's ideas and please >don't respond with poses and parlance of seeking the TRUTH, >essentially I reminds me of some of the birds in 'Conference of the >Birds' --- talk talk and more talk yet no one wants to undertake the >real voyage. It is a bit presumptuous and harsh to accuse others of not wanting "to undertake the real voyage." Perhaps, Mr. Bryquer could share what *he* means by the real journey? If not, then why castigate others who may be trying to explore the basic parameters of that journey in the first place? It seems unnecessarily insulting to accuse others of assuming the "poses and parlance of seeking the TRUTH." Does Mr. Bryquer assume to know what is going on in the hearts of those, like Mr. Hadaad (or myself, for that matter) who are engaged in this conversation? And how is Mr. Bryquer so sure that the correspondants in this case do not actually *practice* Sufism with sincere intent? If, at times, we do not communicate very effectively, perhaps he could suggest how we *could*;. that would be greatly appreciated by one such as me, who may have trouble at times doing so. >It is obvious to me, I don't about some of the other members of this >group, but this public display is ego driven, no matter what saintly >excuse you use to appease your souls. I'm not interested in any >reply, please, I do not want to be part of this. Best and I apologize >to all who have to endure.... Salaams How it so obvious that this discussion is "ego driven." Can you share with us your criteria for making such a determination? It would be useful to the entire dialogical process on this board, if you would offer such guidelines, and if they were specific and precise. At the same time, you seem to disallow any response, therefore, any dialogue whatsoever, simply assuming that we are "posturing ". As far as this being a "public display," again I may be wrong, but I thought that we were all actively engaged in discussing Sufism and the basic criteria for following the Way. I have searched my heart, and I can assure you that my purpose not simply annoy you, nor to score points for my own ego. I doubt that this is this case for Mr. Hadaad, either. At the very least, he shows great reverance for his Shaykh and for the Nagshbandiyya, and I doubt that this is merely a "saintly excuse." My apologies, (if apologies are due) for submitting Mr. Bryquer (and others who might agree) to communications which are hard to endure. I thought, however, that one could simply tune-out communications on this forum with which one finds irritating or personally irrelevant.. Asalumu Alaykum. From tariqas-approval Mon Sep 18 06:57:56 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17352; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 11:02:09 -0400 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA17330; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 11:02:08 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA00985; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:57:56 -0400 Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 10:57:56 -0400 From: NurLuna@aol.com Message-Id: <950918105754_102309315@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Cc: David@eisnet.net Subject: Re: From the back of the Niu Jie Mosque . . . (fwd) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: As-salaam aleikum, tariqas family! On Sun, 17 Sep 1995, Lilyan Ila wrote [in part]: >The interesting thing is that things were much better for women during the >"old days" - the time of our Prophet, peace be upon him and his family. >Yes, we are changing I agree, and it is not to anything new, it is more >like a returning. I hope that some better versed in history than I am can >give examples of how things were and how they got changed. Peace and Joy to you, sister Lily! May I first say how deeply touched I was by the poem you forwarded. I too know that back room down the alley. Even though it didn't physically exist in my fundamentalist Christian upbringing, it was there nonetheless. For anyone wishing to explore "how things were and how they got changed", I can heartily recommend Riane Eisler's book _The Chalice and the Blade_. In it, she uses archeological evidence to reconstruct an earlier time in our prehistory and to trace its destruction. In this earlier time, there was no war. Cities had no walls. There were no weapons. In the art of the time, there was no depiction of war or war games. There was no slavery. There were no "rulers" in the sense we know them. There were no palaces. All houses were more or less the same size. People were buried with more or less the same ritual objects. (The differences existed in how ornate a particular object may be from one house to another, or from one grave to another.) There was no money. (The idea that one could own so much "stuff" that it had to be represented in a smaller, more portable way was probably inconceivable.) Places of worship housed priests and priestesses, and were located literally on every street corner. These places were almost identical in form and content to the rest of the houses in the neighborhood. Arts and crafts abounded, from metal working to pottery making. And -- to borrow from the title of Merlin Stone's book -- God was a woman. The form of the Divine that was worshipped was the female form, from which comes life and birth, which were seen as holy. Eisler describes this earlier form of society as a partnership, one in which men and women both were valued equally and contributed equally to the community as partners; symbolized by the form of the chalice which is both phallic and womb-shaped. She contrasts this with the society which violently took over, in the period about 4,000 to 6,000 years ago, and which has been in place, mostly unchallenged, since then. Bands of armed men swept down from the north (called variously Indo-Europeans, Aryans, and Kurgans) and up from the south (the Hebrews), and burned, raped, pillaged, and destroyed the known civilized world. For 2,000 years, there were no new technological advances. Pottery making died out in many parts of the world. In this society, one's ability to inflict pain and death earned one power and privilege. War was an act of worship. Weapons, "the blade", were holy objects, valued for their ability to destroy. Eisler calls this form of society a dominator model. It is characterized by those (few, male, and native) in power and the many (women, children, and foreigners) who are powerless. One's ability to be in and maintain power gives one the "God-given" right to abuse, exploit, and indeed destroy all others who have no power, or whose power can be taken from them by means of violent force, including animals and the Earth itself. Eisler devotes a section to the origins of Islam and Christianity, calling these emergences truly partnership in essence. Both included women as equals in the original spiritual communities. Both were later co-opted by the dominator regimes to justify economic and political warfare, the virtual enslavement of women and children, and to further cement the entrenchment of dominator ideals as being "from God". In Eisler's new book, _Sacred Pleasure_, she explores how the domimator culture has taken over our most intimate relationships and even our very bodies through what she calls the eroticization of domination. (Still reading this one. Stay tuned for more information!) Reading _The Chalice and the Blade_ changed my life. In it, I glimpse my birthright -- the outline of a very different world, one which belonged to my ancestors, one which could exist again. Ya Fattah! Farrunnissa From tariqas-approval Mon Sep 18 10:08:00 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20381; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 14:12:15 -0400 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20338; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 14:12:12 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA12326 for tariqas@world.std.com; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 14:08:00 -0400 Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 14:08:00 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <950918140758_22503741@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Ibn Arabi text Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: thank you Mustafa for the reference! in peace, Jinavamsa From tariqas-approval Mon Sep 18 10:55:02 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22999; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 14:55:05 -0400 Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22944; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 14:55:02 -0400 Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA00666 for tariqas@world.std.com; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 14:55:02 -0400 Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 14:55:02 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <950918145501_22536398@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: From the back of the Niu Jie Mosque ... Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Lilly and Asha, I enjoyed your postings very much. So long as women are not safe, so long as people are not safe, and unwelcomed or treated without respect, we are all not [=none of us is] finished the spiritual work. (IMO). I've also read the interesting posting from Farrunnissa, so what I was planning to write is echoing what was there said. The understanding that there was a non-hierarchical peaceful society before the descent of the Aryans into the Indian sub-continent (taking it over, so to speak, long before the British, and ultimately calling themselves, neither Indian nor European, the Indo-European culture) is talked about in a work by the Belgian writer Andre von Lysebeth. He talks of les saigneurs [those who cause the blood to flow, as in battle] becoming les seigneurs [the lords]. (It's a play on words, as the two are homonyms in French.) It is in English translation, but I have the book as Tantra: le culte de la fe'minite' (Flammarion, ISBN 2.08.201351.0); Engl. is Tantra: The Cult of the Feminine (Weiser, ISBN 0-87728-845-3). The book is rather big are carefully written. (The French text is over 450 pages. I haven't seen the English, which is scheduled to be published in October.) Von Lysebeth also referrs interestingly to a tantric society of some 9 000 years ago in Anatolia, the civilization at Tchatal-Hu:yu:k, the modern Turkish village of Ku:c,u:k-Koy. (I use the : to represent the umlaut; the c, to represent the c with cedilla.) in peace, Jinavamsa From tariqas-approval Mon Sep 18 10:55:09 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23117; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 14:55:13 -0400 Received: from emout06.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23082; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 14:55:10 -0400 Received: by emout06.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA00740 for tariqas@world.std.com; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 14:55:09 -0400 Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 14:55:09 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <950918145508_22536466@emout06.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Pre-eminent Bickering Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: I understand, based on the basic announcement of policy sent by Tariqas when people sign on, that this is a forum for discussion, one in which there is no assumption or presupposition that those reading or posting are of one belief system or another, but that all are interested in the path of the heart, esp. as it operates in the teachings of the sufis. If I may ask and answer: Why the sense that people are posturing or disputing or going on ego trips, instead of being in sincere search for the Beloved (if I may use a Sufi image here)? My sense is that if people in their postings disagree with respect, and without taking what has been called a "holier-than-thou" stance, and gave the impression of sincere interest in trying to understand or clarify, that there would be much less resistance to, and annoyance by, postings which responded in disagreement to the contents of earlier notes. May the Search be with companions! in peace, Jinavamsa From tariqas-approval Mon Sep 18 05:03:49 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29930; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 15:03:55 -0400 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA29872; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 15:03:51 -0400 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (bergner@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id MAA12674 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 12:03:50 -0700 From: Paul Bergner Message-Id: <199509181903.MAA12674@desiree.teleport.com> Subject: Re: ISLAM'S ATTITUDE TOWARDS MUSIC (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 12:03:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 6861 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Forwarded message: > From <@uga.cc.uga.edu:owner-islam-l@ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU> Mon Sep 18 07:39:36 1995 > Message-Id: <199509181439.HAA19284@desiree.teleport.com> > Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 08:33:36 -0600 > Reply-To: History of Islam > Sender: History of Islam > From: HKKM@aol.com > Subject: Re: ISLAM'S ATTITUDE TOWARDS MUSIC > X-To: History of Islam > X-cc: ISLAM-L@ulkyvm.louisville.edu > To: Multiple recipients of list ISLAM-L Asalaamu alaikum. This post appeared on another list. I know we were discussing this same question a few months ago, so here it is . . . Mustafa > > Dear brother Ammar Kahf > Assalaam Alaikum, > The book: "The Outlines of Islamic Culture" by Prof. A.M.A. Shustery was > published from Banglore city, India in 1954 and while I do not have the > publisher's name and address, I have the following notes from that book which > I read in 1960. I am sending these notes and hope you can find the book in > some library. > > 1) a) "The beautiful voice is indirectly praised in the Holy Quran as > follows: ' Verily the least pleasing of voices is the voice of donkeys'" > (Sura 31:Ayat 18). > b) "Abu Musa Ashari, a companion of the Holy Prophet, was gifted with > melodious voice. His recitation of the Quran was sweet and musical and so the > Prophet(s.a.s.) said that '...the harp of David had been renewed in his > voice.' " > c) "According to another tradition, the Prophet is reported to have > said:'Ornament your recitation of the Quran with your good voice. For every > thing there is and ornament and the ornament of the Quran is melodious > voice.'" > > d) " Cultivation of music as a subject of study, began during the end of > the Ummayad rule and was fully developed under the Abbasids, though singing > and playing of musical instruments for purposes of enjoyment were prevalent > as early as the time of the Prophet." > " Later on the theologians perceived that it was being misused and society > was degenerating into lust and passion. Hence they took serious steps to > combat the evil. Most of them declared 'ghina'(music) as 'malahi' or pleasure > forbidden by Islam. > > " But opinion among them was not unanimous, e.g: > i) IMAM MALIK BIN ANAS considered it to be LAWFUL. > ii) AL GHAZZALI approved of its practice subject to certain conditions. > iii) IMAM ABU HANIFA, although he considered 'ghina' as a vice, maintained > that a Muslim who destroys the musical instruments of other Muslims does an > unlawful act and should be made responsible for the loss. > iv) The majority of SUFI SAGES not only approved the playing on musical > instruments but also permitted singing and dancing as necessary in addressing > the Divine Being in terms of love and to reflect on sublime beauty." > > 2) "AMONG THE EARLIEST MUSLIM PROFESSIONAL MUSICIANS WERE: > i) TAVAIS. (d.705 A.D) > ii) SAID KATHIR (d. 683 AD) > iii) IBN MISJAH, who studied the Byzantine and Iranian systems of music and > blended them with the Arabic. > iv) MUSLIM, son of Mahrij, a pupil of Ibn Misjah & > v) IBN SURAIJ, were great musicians at MECCA. > vi) MABAD & > vii) MALIK, were at MEDINA. > viii) ATA ALI RABAH ( d.734 AD) introduced the style of 'tashriq' in which > two women entertained the people with love-songs and odes during the > Pilgramage Season. > ix) YUNUS KATEE was especially invited to Damascus (742 AD) by Khalif Walid > II (himself a good player of flute) and he collected Arab songs and wrote a > book on music, including "KITABUL KIYAN" (The Book on Melodies). > x) ISHAQ (769-850 AD) & > xi) MOUSALI were the two great musicians of Harun al Rashid. > > Muslim music reached its highest excellence during the reigns of Harun & > Mamun. > > 3) SOME OF THE FAMOUS MUSLIM AUTHORS AND PHILOSOPHERS WHO WROTE ON MUSIC > were: > i) AL-KINDI, who wrote (7) books on composition and laws of tones, elements > of music, rhytm, musical intruments and union of poetry and music. > ii) AL-FARABI, the first great Muslim philosopher was a musician and his > criticism of Greek music shows the extent of Muslim advance in the subject. > His works are among the best and even today may be studied with advantage. > He has written on the principles of sound and the variety of musical > instruments in use at the time, and his book 'KITABUL MUSIQI' is considered > very important contribution to the study of music. > iii) IBN SINA, the next great Muslim philosopher has dealt with music in his > (2) celebrated works, entitled : 'SHIFA' and 'NIJAT' and his treatise on the > theory of the subject is as important as that of Farabi. > iv) THE RASAIL IKHWAN-US-SAFA , contains a separate section on music. > v) AL GHAZZALI, has explained now music can be made a source for the > attainment of spirituality and ecstasy in his celebrated work, 'IHYA-UL-ULUM' > . He has also given description of LAWFUL & UNLAWFUL MUSIC. > vi) ABUL-FARAJ ISPHANI'S work in (21) parts in which he has illustrated > (100) selected tunes and has traced their origins, nature, and scope, is > considered the most important work in Arabic on music. > vii) Philosophers: IBN-BAJA (AVAMPACE, d.1138 AD) & > viii) IBN-E-RUSHD( AVERROES, d.1198AD) & > ix) IBN SABIRI (d.1269 AD) & > x) YAHYA-AL-KUDUJ were the most noted MUSLIM authors in SPAIN. > xi) IBN-ABD RABBIM (d,940 AD) wrote a biography of noted musicians in which > he defended the lawfulness and healthy effects of music. > xii) NASIRUDDIN TUSI, the famous astronomer and mathematician also wrote > about > music. > xiii) SHAMSUDDIN MURAMMAD, son of Al-Marhan Qutubdin Shiraz (d.1310AD) the > author of 'Durratul-Tej' also discussed music. > > 4) Khalifa ABDUR-RAHMAN of Spain, opened a SCHOOL OF MUSIC at > CORDOVA.which was known for producing famous musicians. > 5) THERE WERE SCHOOLS OF MUSIC IN: > i) BAGHDAD, > ii) CAIRO, > iii) DAMASCUS, > iv) SEVILLE, > v) GRANADA > vi) TOLEDO and other important cities of: > vii) IRAN, > viii) CENTRAL ASIA > ix) SPAIN. > Musicians were respected, well paid and held in esteem". > > Note: Considering all these facts we may conclude that Islam does not forbid > study and cultivation of music as an art: on the contrary it has patronised > and developed pre-Islamic Arabian music to a high degree of excellence, > assimilating Persian and to some extent Byzantine and Greek music and in > doing so has contributed considerable litrature and musical instruments to > the world of music. > > What Islam attempted to prevent was the licentious indulgence and > demoralizing misuse of this fine art. > > (Ref: "The Outlines of Islamic Culture" by Prof. A.M.A. Shustery, Banglore > 1954.) > From tariqas-approval Tue Sep 19 18:55:19 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14392; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 18:58:44 -0400 Received: from yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14328; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 18:58:39 -0400 Received: from localhost (darice@localhost) by yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au (8.6.4/8.6.4) id IAA03212; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 08:58:36 +1000 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 08:55:19 +1000 (EST) From: Fred Rice Subject: Re: Ibn Arabi text To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <950918001530_22135014@mail02.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Peace be with you! On Mon, 18 Sep 1995 Jinavamsa@aol.com wrote: > While in France I came across a work by Ibn'Arabi, Voyage vers le maitre de > la puissance. The book is a translation of Risalat-ul-anwar fima yumnah sahib > al-khalwa min al-asrar, BY WAY OF the English translation by Rabia Terri > Harris, entitled, Journey to the Lord of Power. It is (c) 1081 by the > Jerrahi Order of America. > Would anyone know how I can locate the English (American) version of this > text? Are there others? I have another Ibn al-Arabi book here ("What the seeker needs") also published by the Jerrahi Order of America. Their address is given in the front of the book. It is: The Jerrahi Order of America 884 Chestnut Ridge Road Chestnut Ridge, New York 10977 Hope it helps :) Peace, Fred Rice From tariqas-approval Mon Sep 18 16:59:58 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20507; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 21:00:02 -0400 Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20489; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 21:00:00 -0400 Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA19087 for tariqas@world.std.com; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 20:59:58 -0400 Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 20:59:58 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <950918205954_22874069@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: QQ re Sufi practice & re technology Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: There is no virtue in truth which has no beauty. From tariqas-approval Mon Sep 18 15:02:00 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23453; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 21:05:52 -0400 Received: from gatekeeper2.mcimail.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23300; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 21:05:49 -0400 Received: from mailgate2.mcimail.com (mailgate2.mcimail.com [166.38.40.100]) by gatekeeper2.mcimail.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id BAA17039; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 01:04:29 GMT Received: from mcimail.com by mailgate2.mcimail.com id aa23486; 19 Sep 95 1:03 WET Date: Mon, 18 Sep 95 20:02 EST From: Mike Moore <0007106488@mcimail.com> To: tariqas Subject: Re: Pre-eminent Bickering Message-Id: <93950919010239/0007106488PJ3EM@MCIMAIL.COM> Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: >>As far as this being a "public display," again I may be wrong, but I thought that we were all actively engaged in discussing Sufism and the basic criteria for following the Way.>> I believe your thought was correct. I imagine that Simon was looking into a mirror and did not know it. I must confess that your discussion with Mr. Hadaad was a bit to advanced for this beginner to follow but as long as even one person found benefit in it including you and Mr. Hadaad then the minor inconvienence of paging through it was justified. Please continue as your heart guides you. -Michael- From tariqas-approval Mon Sep 18 14:37:52 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14904; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 00:36:32 -0400 Received: from miwok.nbn.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14888; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 00:36:30 -0400 Received: from [199.4.64.40] (srf-40.nbn.com [199.4.64.40]) by miwok.nbn.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA29670 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 21:36:23 -0700 X-Sender: olh@mail.nbn.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 21:37:52 -0700 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: olh@hyperback.com (Bob Olhsson) Subject: Re: Pre-Emineent Tariqas/Saints (fwd) Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: At 4:31 PM 9/17/95, Mike Moore wrote: >Fouad said: ><you have to obtain them and confirm them in the traditional way, which >is to <>. Otherwise your confusion will keep >increasing. >> > > >This must be true. As I have half-heartedly read some of these rather >heady conversations I have become more confused. How could I ever be >a sufi if I did not know what a 'silsila' was? Such elaborate >constructions! Has there ever been a Sufi with an IQ of less >than 102? Has an angel ever been seen in 40 words or fewer? There certainly is a trap in intellectualization however the key to learning about Sufism for me has been my direct interaction with a teacher who insists that I "get it.". The teacher adapts to the balance of intellect, intuition and whatever found in the particular mureed by a tuning process. This is an oral tradition process that does not lend its self to the written page other than on the most personal level. It is also how crafts are passed on from master to apprentice. Bob Bob Olhsson Audio | O tongue, thou art a olh@hyperback.com | treasure without end. P.O. Box 555 | And, O tongue, thou art also a Novato, CA 94948-0555 | disease without remedy. 415.457.2620 | 415.456.1496 FAX | == Jelal'uddin Rumi == From tariqas-approval Mon Sep 18 14:38:02 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14961; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 00:36:42 -0400 Received: from miwok.nbn.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA14954; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 00:36:40 -0400 Received: from [199.4.64.40] (srf-40.nbn.com [199.4.64.40]) by miwok.nbn.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id VAA29678 for ; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 21:36:34 -0700 X-Sender: olh@mail.nbn.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 21:38:02 -0700 To: tariqas@world.std.com From: olh@hyperback.com (Bob Olhsson) Subject: oral-tradition vs. industrialism Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: A few thoughts about oral-tradition teaching and our modern lives. There is plenty of evidence that the oral tradition of spiritual instruction was alive and well in the west until the industrial revolution was sold to us with it's promotion of the idea that everything naturally evolves into something better or higher (or more "fit") and hence "industrialism is mankind's destiny for greatness." Because one could burn books, they became the ideal teaching vehicle for industrialist propaganda in the form of history rewrites which pooh-poohed the oral teaching tradition (and religion for that matter) as being "primitive and ignorant." (Marx saw the ethical dilemma but bought into the flawed ideals of industrialism and rationalism hook line and sinker.) The reaction to this was to burn the new books while clinging to old, flawed English translations of the Bible, renouncing everything foreign or new as "unholy." Unfortunately, today we keep trying to apply the values (and ego-trip) of intellectual rationalism and industrialism and its employer -> government -> company-store -> employee -> dependent spouse -> dependent child co-dependency chain to our understanding of our lives. We often blame our misery on each other rather than recognizing this godless hierarchical thought-prison for what it is. Is our employer REALLY our highest authority? Enough of us certainly live as though that were the case. I am constantly catching myself on this one. Bob Bob Olhsson Audio | O tongue, thou art a olh@hyperback.com | treasure without end. P.O. Box 555 | And, O tongue, thou art also a Novato, CA 94948-0555 | disease without remedy. 415.457.2620 | 415.456.1496 FAX | == Jelal'uddin Rumi == From tariqas-approval Tue Sep 19 01:23:49 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01993; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 01:23:49 -0400 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 01:23:49 -0400 Message-Id: <199509190523.AA01993@world.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Admin request Status: RO X-Status: >From dabrowsk@tibalt.supernet.ab.ca Mon Sep 18 17:23:41 1995 Return-Path: Received: from tibalt.supernet.ab.ca by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01962; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 01:23:47 -0400 Message-Id: <199509190523.AA01962@world.std.com> Received: from cgy-p2.supernet.ab.ca by tibalt.supernet.ab.ca with SMTP (1.37.109.16/16.2) id AA048128221; Mon, 18 Sep 1995 23:23:41 -0600 Date: Mon, 18 Sep 1995 23:23:41 -0600 X-Sender: dabrowsk@tibalt.supernet.ab.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dabrowsk@tibalt.supernet.ab.ca Subject: X-Mailer: subscribe From tariqas-approval Tue Sep 19 03:05:52 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02463; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 03:05:52 -0400 Received: from carmen.logica.co.uk by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA02443; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 03:05:49 -0400 Received: from smtpmail.logica.com (mssmtp.logica.com [158.234.8.102]) by carmen.logica.co.uk (8.7.Beta.10/8.7.Beta.10) with SMTP id IAA00564 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 08:05:51 +0100 (BST) Received: by smtpmail.logica.com with Microsoft Mail id <305E79CC@smtpmail.logica.com>; Tue, 19 Sep 95 08:05:32 bst From: Otersen Mathias To: "'tariqasmail'" Subject: How intelligent should one be? Date: Tue, 19 Sep 95 08:59:00 bst Message-Id: <305E79CC@smtpmail.logica.com> Encoding: 15 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu-Alaikum, An interesting question arose out of the bickering of the Nasqbandi with the rest of the world: How intelligent should one be? I'm quite sure that Fouad is able to recite the Ko'ran backwards and knows the personal life of the persons that lived next door to the direct followers of the profet. I'm however interested in how far such knowledge is relevant for it's only by the mercy of Allah that anyone of us will receive his blessing and will receive entrance to paradise. (and I still believe this is the purpose of the exercise). Wa-salaam, Matthias From tariqas-approval Mon Sep 18 20:24:52 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11671; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 06:24:57 -0400 Received: from well.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA11660; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 06:24:55 -0400 Received: from LOCALNAME (sf-tty4-ppp.well.com [198.93.4.103]) by well.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id DAA24483 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 03:24:52 -0700 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 03:24:52 -0700 Message-Id: <199509191024.DAA24483@well.com> X-Sender: dno@well.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: dno@well.com (Kevin O'Malley) Subject: Re: Ibn Arabi text Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Jinavamsa, I have a copy of the book you are seeking. It is titled "Journey to thge Lord of Power -- A Sufi Manual of Retreat", published by Inner Traditions International; One Park Street; Rochester, Vermont 05767. (Copyright 1981, 1989 Jerrahi Order of America) The book is the first in a series of volumes on Sufism from the Halveti-Jerrahi Order. The translator is the same Rabia Terri Harris. It is a very nice edition, with introductions by Sheikh Muzaffer Ozak and Tosun Bayrak, extensive notes, and reproductions of the calligraphy of Mehmet Shefik from the Grand Mosque in Bursa, Turkey. I would think that you could find it through most good esoteric/metaphysical bookstores. I know that they have it in stock at Fields Bookstore here in San Francisco, who will also ship it to you. (Let me know if you would like their phone number.) -- Siddiq in San Francisco dno@well.com At 12:15 AM 9/18/95 -0400, tariqas@world.std.com wrote: >Greetings again. (finally back, resubscribed to Tariqas, after finding myself >not receiving any more Tariqas postings since summertime). > >While in France I came across a work by Ibn'Arabi, Voyage vers le maitre de >la puissance. The book is a translation of Risalat-ul-anwar fima yumnah sahib >al-khalwa min al-asrar, BY WAY OF the English translation by Rabia Terri >Harris, entitled, Journey to the Lord of Power. It is (c) 1081 by the >Jerrahi Order of America. >Would anyone know how I can locate the English (American) version of this >text? Are there others? >thank you. >in peace, >Jinavamsa > > > From tariqas-approval Tue Sep 19 11:11:11 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01869; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:12:12 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA01856; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:12:11 -0400 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:12:11 +0059 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Pre-eminent Bickering To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <950918043132_102175368@mail02.mail.aol.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Assalamu alaikum. On Mon, 18 Sep 1995 Abdlqadir@aol.com wrote: > On 09/17/95, Simon Bryquer (sbryquer@pipeline.com) stated: > > >I normally don't post, but with all due respect, stop this public >bickering > and carry on this dispute via private correpondence. It's >obvious that you > both come from different point of view and I assure >you, I have seen this > before, no matter how many words you will not >convince each other. > > If Mr. Bryquer is refering to correspondances between myself and Mr. Hadaad, > I would like to answer. To present differing views is not necessarily to > "dispute." It has been my idea that this forum was a place to share > differing perspectives, not just between private parties, but for the > presumed benefit of those who might want to listen in. I am sorry that you > are one who soesn't want to hear this type of discussion, and it is not my > intention to inflict it upon you. > [stuff deleted] > > My apologies, (if apologies are due) for submitting Mr. Bryquer (and others > who might agree) to communications which are hard to endure. I thought, > however, that one could simply tune-out communications on this forum with > which one finds irritating or personally irrelevant.. > People in this forum are welcome to participate as their heart guides them. Participation may take the form of sharing poetry, our experiences of our own live's journeys, intellectual discussion -- or listening, without feeling compelled to share anything (except perhaps an occasional message, as Mr. Bryquer has). Yours, habib rose host of tariqas From tariqas-approval Tue Sep 19 10:39:26 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA23102; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:39:26 -0400 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:39:26 -0400 Message-Id: <199509191439.AA23102@world.std.com> To: tariqas-approval@world.std.com From: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Subject: BOUNCE tariqas@world.std.com: Admin request Status: RO X-Status: >From M.G.Dastagir@philosophy.hull.ac.uk Tue Sep 19 16:37:47 1995 Return-Path: Received: from gilbert.ucc.hull.ac.uk by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA22813; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:39:07 -0400 Received: from humus.ucc.hull.ac.uk (actually host adelphi-le0.ucc.hull.ac.uk) by gilbert.ucc.hull.ac.uk with SMTP (PP); Tue, 19 Sep 1995 15:37:54 +0100 Received: from humus.computer-centre.hull.ac.uk by humus.computer-centre.hull.ac.uk id <19293-0@humus.computer-centre.hull.ac.uk>; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 15:37:50 +0100 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 15:37:47 +0100 (BST) From: "M.G.Dastagir" X-Sender: pipmgd@humus Reply-To: M.G.Dastagir@philosophy.hull.ac.uk To: pflaump@mail.firn.edu Cc: sufi@world.std.com, tariqas@world.std.com, fdow@aol.com, isl-sci@vtvm1.vt.cc.edu Subject: help me please Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: M.G.Dastagir@philosophy.hull.ac.uk Dear friends You helped me in so many way in the past. Could I request you for something. You might know that my doctoral research is on the Sufi Concept of the Soul in relation to Greek philosophy. As for Greek philosophy I am mainly focusing on Plato, Aristotle and Plotinus, that is on Neo-Platonism. Now as for Sufism, I wonder whether I should concentrate on any particular Sufi order, or a particular Sufi, or something else, for example, muslim philosophers such as Al-Farabi, Ibn Sina, Ibn Rushd, or anybody else. Please help me. I am confused. I have not as selected any particular Sufi order and thus extracting Sufi texts from those who suit the Greek context of the topic. Thanks in advance Sincerely Golam Dastagir From tariqas-approval Tue Sep 19 11:53:16 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03242; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:54:18 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03215; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:54:16 -0400 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 10:54:16 +0059 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: assist me please (fwd) To: tariqas@world.std.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 15:37:47 +0100 (BST) From: "M.G.Dastagir" X-Sender: pipmgd@humus Reply-To: M.G.Dastagir@philosophy.hull.ac.uk To: pflaump@mail.firn.edu Cc: sufi@world.std.com, tariqas@world.std.com, fdow@aol.com, isl-sci@vtvm1.vt.cc.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: M.G.Dastagir@philosophy.hull.ac.uk Dear friends You helped me in so many way in the past. Could I request you for something. You might know that my doctoral research is on the Sufi Concept of the Soul in relation to Greek philosophy. As for Greek philosophy I am mainly focusing on Plato, Aristotle and Plotinus, that is on Neo-Platonism. Now as for Sufism, I wonder whether I should concentrate on any particular Sufi order, or a particular Sufi, or something else, for example, muslim philosophers such as Al-Farabi, Ibn Sina, Ibn Rushd, or anybody else. Please assist me. I am confused. I have not as selected any particular Sufi order and thus extracting Sufi texts from those who suit the Greek context of the topic. Thanks in advance Sincerely Golam Dastagir From tariqas-approval Tue Sep 19 06:08:09 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13069; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 11:08:40 -0400 Received: from UNiX.asb.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13029; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 11:08:38 -0400 Received: from sle5.asb.com (sle5.asb.com [165.254.128.75]) by UNiX.asb.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id LAA01232 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 11:08:09 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 11:08:09 -0500 Message-Id: <199509191608.LAA01232@UNiX.asb.com> X-Sender: f_haddad@unix.asb.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: f_haddad@unix.asb.com (Fouad Haddad) Subject: Re: How intelligent should one be? X-Mailer: Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > >Assalamu-Alaikum, wa alaykum as-salam > >An interesting question arose out of the bickering of the Nasqbandi with the >rest of the world: How intelligent should one be? I'm quite sure that Fouad >is able to recite the Ko'ran backwards and knows the personal life of the >persons that lived next door to the direct followers of the profet. I'm >however interested in how far such knowledge is relevant for it's only by >the mercy of Allah that anyone of us will receive his blessing and will >receive entrance to paradise. (and I still believe this is the purpose of >the exercise). > >Wa-salaam, > >Matthias > > Dear Matthias, I am very sad at the antagonism that was generated by my original three posts on the Naqshbandiyyah and my masters. If I could do it again, I would certainly not use such language and would relativize everything in order to make it more palatable. It is regrettable that intelligent people should interpret the claim of superlative excellence in tasawwuf as being antithetical to truth, logic, authenticity, and humbleness. But I want to say that in the process of clarifying my main point (that the excellence of a tariqa does not preclude that of other tariqas even if it is expressed in exclusive terms, and I tried to illustrate this with the great shaykhs' utterances about themselves) -- in the process, I did not attack anybody and I did not belittle their responses. To see all these assumptions made about me, or the word "bickering", etc. I may ask: Based on what? I explained what I heard and what I knew in the way I thought best, and realize now some of it was inappropriate, but I always kept or tried to keep at least a minimum of informative tenor. Of course I believe knowledge of silsila and biographies is not what saves you! But as Abdkabir said, this seemed to have its place in the discussion and that is where it should be seen. Not in absolute terms that make the author responsible for something he didn't intend. And, dear Mathhias, I am not intelligent and I don't know even part of what you ascribe to me, but I do know that love of the Prophet (s) DOES save you if you can claim it. But how can we love the Prophet (s) if we don't even have love for a visible, tangible master? And what is the master whom you love if you know or try to know nothing about him when you know more about lesser figures? Thanks for your message all the same, because its second half is true without doubt. Regards, Fouad Haddad Naqshbandi-Haqqani Foundation From tariqas-approval Tue Sep 19 10:21:31 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA06022; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 14:22:57 -0400 Received: from relay2.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05927; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 14:22:53 -0400 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by relay2.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzhwz20973; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 14:22:49 -0400 From: RHMH@aol.com Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA28331 for tariqas@world.std.com; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 14:21:31 -0400 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 14:21:31 -0400 Message-Id: <950919142129_23515218@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: The Greatest Shaykh / real & false teachers... Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: >>There is one shaykh in the world today that is greater than any >>other. This can be seen clearly from the number of this shaykh's >>followers, which greatly outnumber the number of followers of any >>other shaykh. ... >> >>May Allah protect us from following it into error. >> >>Fred Rice Dear Fred, A couple of passages from Hazrat Inayat Khan... #1) "There was a great Sufi teacher in India who had a thousand adherants who were most devoted pupils. One day he said to them, 'I have changed my mind.' And the words 'changed my mind' surprised them greatly; they asked him. 'What is the matter, how can it be that you have changed your mind?' He said, 'I have the feeling that I must go and bow before the Goddess Kali.' And these people, among them were soctors and professors, well qualified people, could not understand this whim, that their great teacher in whom they had such faith, wished to go into the temple of Kali and bow before the Goddess of the hideous face, he, a God-realized man in whom they had such confidence! And the thousand disciples left him at once, thinking 'What is this? It is against the religion of the formless God, against the teaching of this great Sufi himself, that he wants to worship the Goddess Kali!' And there remained only one pupil, a youth who was very devoted to his teacher, and he followed him to the temple of Kali. The teacher was very glad to get rid of these thousand pupils, who were full of knowledge, full of their learning, but who did not really know him; it was just as well that they should leave. And as they were going towards the temple, the teacher spoke three times to this young man, saying 'Why do you not go away? Look at these thousand people, who had such faith and such admiration, and now I have just said one word, and they have left me. Why do you not go with them? The majority is right.' The pupil, however, would not go, but continued to follow him. And through all this the teacher received great inspiration and a revelation of how strange human nature is, how soon people are attracted and how soon they can fly away. It was such an interesting phemomenon for him to see the play of human nature that his heart was full of feeling, and when they arrived at the temple of Kali he experienced such ecstasy that he fell down and bowed his head low. And the young man did the same. "When he got up he asked this youn man again, 'Why do you not leave me when you have seen a thousand people go away? Why do you follow me?' THe yound man answered, 'There is nothing in what you have done that is against my convictions, because the first lesson you have taught me was that nothing exists save God. If that is true, then that image is not Kali; it too is God, What does it matter whether you bow to the East or to the West or to the earth or to heaven? Since nothing exists except God, there is nobody else except God before whom to bow, even in bowing before Kali. It was the first lesson you taught me.' All these learned men were given the same lesson, they were students and very clever, but they could not conceive of that main thought which was the centre of all the teaching. It was this same young man who later became the greatest Sufi teacher in India, Khwaja Moin-ud-Din Chishti." Question: Is it the _number_ of followers that makes a Shaykh great... or the _quality_ of the followers, even if perhaps there is only one who is truely able to drink deeply of that which the shaykh offers? #2) " ... But at the same time a real seeker, on who is not false to himself, will always meet with the truth, with the real, because it is his own real faith, his own sincerity in earnest seeking that will become his torch. ... And supposing one came in contact with a false teacher, what then? Then the real One will turn the false teacher also into a real teacher, because reality is greater than falsehood. "There is a story told of a dervish, a simple man, who was initiated by a teacher, and after that teacher has passed away this man came in contact with some clairvoyant who asked him if he had guidance on his path. The man replied, 'Yes, my master, who passed from this earth. When he was still alive I enjoued his guidance for some time, so the only thing I would want now is just your blessing.' But the clairvoyant said, 'I see by my clairvoyant power that the teacher who has passed away was not a true teacher.' When the simple man heard this he would not allow himself to be angry with the other, but he said gently, 'This teacher of mine may be false, but my faith is not false, and that is sufficient.'" some thoughts... Truly there really is only one Teacher / Shaykh, and that is Allah alone. The teacher or shaykh who most clearly is able to reflect Allah to us, will be for us the greatest teacher, the greatest shaykh. Allah, with bountiful mercy and compassion, knows that we are beings with differing limitations, and so provides many different guides, each of which is the perfect guide for the student who needs that particular guide. The same pair of eyeglasses will not work for every person whose vision is impaired. The perfect pair of eyeglasses which perfectly clears the vision for one person, may either partially work for another, or even make things much worse (in the case of a near-sighted person trying on the glasses of a far-sighted person...). Allah, with infinite wisdom has created many 'prescriptions' of all variations, so that each and every being who wants to see, will be able to. Truly you are blessed to have found your ideal Shaykh, may each and every one find theirs... ~ramabai From tariqas-approval Tue Sep 19 10:34:55 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18557; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 14:39:15 -0400 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18505; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 14:39:11 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id OAA06185 for tariqas@world.std.com; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 14:34:55 -0400 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 14:34:55 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Message-Id: <950919143454_103376544@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: Ibn Arabi text Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: hello Siddiq in San Francisco, very nice. Yes, would they have a fax number? thanks for your information. in peace, Jinavamsa From tariqas-approval Tue Sep 19 11:09:55 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15459; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 15:12:30 -0400 Received: from relay1.UU.NET by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA15434; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 15:12:28 -0400 Received: from emout05.mail.aol.com by relay1.UU.NET with SMTP id QQzhxc28764; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 15:12:44 -0400 From: Jinavamsa@aol.com Received: by emout05.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA08277 for tariqas@world.std.com; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 15:09:55 -0400 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 15:09:55 -0400 Message-Id: <950919150953_23548179@emout05.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: beit ul ma'mour Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Re: beit ul ma'mour I have tried to trace this term down. The beit I take it is = bait, or house, in Arabic. the ul is a marker of the genitive ("of") but as for ma'mour, which I have seen translated as The Lord (hence the expression is rendered The House of The Lord) I do not understand. Somewhere I read it refers to a sense of plenitude (as in Koran, S. 47, A. 38), but cannot trace it back to the Arabic word it is trying to transliterate. what might that be? Any help out there? and besides the literal meaning, what is the import of this idea for the Sufi tradition? thank you very much. in peace, Jinavamsa From tariqas-approval Tue Sep 19 12:10:49 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07798; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 16:15:15 -0400 Received: from emout04.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA07740; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 16:15:09 -0400 Received: by emout04.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id QAA16477 for tariqas@world.std.com; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 16:10:49 -0400 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 16:10:49 -0400 From: ASHA101@aol.com Message-Id: <950919161048_23597250@emout04.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: How intelligent should one be? Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Mr. Faoud said:<> I thought that most masters felt that those that came after they died would be better murids because those that followed them while they were alive more often than not identified them with the viel of thier personality and works while those that come after might just love them for themselves, what is behind that viel. Although, I wouldn't turn down the chance to meet any one of the Prophets or masters personally (in this world), perhaps it is best to not go too far out of the way to do that if it takes time away from meeting them on the inner plane, with which no words are associated. Perhaps, this is the basis of a more humble adab, because whatever you claim you must claim it for yourself, and anyone who is not humble about that soon will be. Asha From tariqas-approval Tue Sep 19 15:05:29 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05751; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 19:05:31 -0400 Received: from mail02.mail.aol.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA05736; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 19:05:29 -0400 Received: by mail02.mail.aol.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id TAA20342 for tariqas@world.std.com; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 19:05:29 -0400 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 19:05:29 -0400 From: SheikhDin@aol.com Message-Id: <950919190511_103579367@mail02.mail.aol.com> To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Message to Paul Bergner Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Subj: Message to Paul Bergner Date: 09/19/95 To: tariqas@world.std.com Dear Mustafa (Paul Bergner), Asalaamu Aleikum wa Rahmaullahi wa Barakatuhu! I pray that you are well by the Grace of the Almighty. Kindly . . . are you the same Paul Bergner from the Louisville area that was a musician and involved in A.M. yoga meditation *many* years ago? If so, please contact me directly. If not, I am sorry for any intrusion. Wa Salaam, Sheikh Din Muhammad Abdullah (sheikhdin@aol.com) From tariqas-approval Tue Sep 19 16:25:22 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04690; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 21:25:48 -0400 Received: from UNiX.asb.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04640; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 21:25:47 -0400 Received: from sle2.asb.com (sle2.asb.com [165.254.128.72]) by UNiX.asb.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id VAA00625 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 21:25:22 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 21:25:22 -0500 Message-Id: <199509200225.VAA00625@UNiX.asb.com> X-Sender: f_haddad@unix.asb.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: f_haddad@unix.asb.com (Fouad Haddad) Subject: Re: beit ul ma'mour X-Mailer: Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: >Re: beit ul ma'mour >I have tried to trace this term down. >The beit I take it is = bait, or house, in Arabic. >the ul is a marker of the genitive ("of") >but as for ma'mour, which I have seen translated as The Lord >(hence the expression is rendered The House of The Lord) >I do not understand. Somewhere I read it refers to a sense of plenitude (as >in Koran, S. 47, A. 38), but cannot trace it back to the Arabic word it is >trying to transliterate. what might that be? > >Any help out there? >and besides the literal meaning, what is the import of this idea for the Sufi >tradition? > >thank you very much. >in peace, >Jinavamsa > > Salam jinavamsa, It comes from the Arabic root `amara, which means to abide (in space or time), among other things. The names for the `umra or "minor pilgrimage" as well as `amr, "age" come from that root. the Bayt al-ma`mur is the Kaaba of the heavens, and it is said to be visited every day by 70,000 times 70,000 angels who circumambulate it, pray, and depart never to come back there again. I have heard that in Sufi tradition, this is the Believer or the heart of the Believer. Regards, Fouad Haddad Naqshbandi-Haqqani Foundation From tariqas-approval Tue Sep 19 11:47:15 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19458; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 21:47:21 -0400 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19421; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 21:47:19 -0400 Received: from kelly.teleport.com (bergner@kelly.teleport.com [192.108.254.10]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id SAA09371 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 18:47:16 -0700 From: Paul Bergner Message-Id: <199509200147.SAA09371@desiree.teleport.com> Subject: Re: Message to Paul Bergner To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 18:47:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <950919190511_103579367@mail02.mail.aol.com> from "SheikhDin@aol.com" at Sep 19, 95 07:05:29 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 638 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > > Subj: Message to Paul Bergner > Date: 09/19/95 > To: tariqas@world.std.com > > Dear Mustafa (Paul Bergner), Asalaamu Aleikum wa Rahmaullahi wa Barakatuhu! > > I pray that you are well by the Grace of the Almighty. Kindly . . . are you > the same Paul Bergner from the Louisville area that was a musician and > involved in A.M. yoga meditation *many* years ago? If so, please contact me > directly. If not, I am sorry for any intrusion. > > Wa Salaam, > Sheikh Din Muhammad Abdullah > > (sheikhdin@aol.com) > Walaikum salaam I guess I'm busted. Yes I am indeed the same Paul Bergner. Did we meet there? Peace Mustafa From tariqas-approval Tue Sep 19 15:48:50 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20563; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 21:49:07 -0400 Received: from everest.cclabs.missouri.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20487; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 21:49:01 -0400 Received: from muphnx8 (muphnx8.phlab.missouri.edu [128.206.115.18]) by everest.cclabs.missouri.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA19520 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 20:48:51 -0500 From: Omar Qureshi Message-Id: <199509200148.UAA19520@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu> Received: by muphnx8 (NX5.67e/NX3.0X) id AA01612; Tue, 19 Sep 95 20:48:50 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 95 20:48:50 -0500 Received: by NeXT.Mailer (1.100) Received: by NeXT Mailer (1.100) To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Please answer! Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: A Asalam o alaykum, Dear brother/sisters, I have an important question that I would like to have answered, or at least some insight on. The question is: Why is it that while the worldly and the neglectful, and even the misguided and hypocrites, cooperate without rivalry, the people of religion(Islam), the religious scholars, and those who follow the Sufi path, oppose each other in rivalry, although they are the people of truth and concord? Agreement belongs in reality to the people of concord and dispute to the hypocrites; how is it that these two have changed places? Thank you for your reply's. Salam. From tariqas-approval Tue Sep 19 15:53:26 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26598; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 21:58:28 -0400 Received: from sgi11.phlab.missouri.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26578; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 21:58:26 -0400 Received: (from c640429@localhost) by sgi11.phlab.missouri.edu (8.6.12/8.6.12) id UAA11285; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 20:53:26 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 20:53:26 -0500 (CDT) From: Jawad Qureshi X-Sender: c640429@sgi11.phlab.missouri.edu To: tariqas@world.std.com Subject: Re: assist me please (fwd) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Steve H Rose wrote: > Concept of the Soul in relation to Greek philosophy. As for Greek > philosophy I am mainly focusing on Plato, Aristotle and Plotinus, that is > on Neo-Platonism. Now as for Sufism, I wonder whether I should > concentrate on any particular Sufi order, or a particular Sufi, or > something else, for example, muslim philosophers such as Al-Farabi, Ibn > Sina, Ibn Rushd, or anybody else. I can send you a text on this exact subject. The answer is convincing, and appeals to the heart as well as the mind. Please, send a self-addressed-stamped-envelope to the following address: Jawad Qureshi 4508 Fallwood Court Columbia, MO 65203 The envelope should be big enough to put a cassette in. Inshallah, if you really want this, I will send it to you as soon as I get your envelope. Assalamo alaikum wa rahmat Allah. From tariqas-approval Tue Sep 19 18:23:47 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA20005; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 23:24:10 -0400 Received: from UNiX.asb.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA19983; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 23:24:09 -0400 Received: from sle3.asb.com (sle3.asb.com [165.254.128.73]) by UNiX.asb.com (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA01591 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 23:23:47 -0500 Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 23:23:47 -0500 Message-Id: <199509200423.XAA01591@UNiX.asb.com> X-Sender: f_haddad@unix.asb.com Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: tariqas@world.std.com From: f_haddad@unix.asb.com (Fouad Haddad) Subject: Re: Please answer! X-Mailer: Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Br. Umar Qureshi writes: >Asalam o alaykum, wa alaykum as-salam, > Dear brother/sisters, I have an important question that I >would like to have answered, or at least some insight on. The >question is: Why is it that while the worldly and the neglectful, and >even the misguided and hypocrites, cooperate without rivalry, the >people of religion(Islam), the religious scholars, and those who >follow the Sufi path, oppose each other in rivalry, although they are >the people of truth and concord? Agreement belongs in reality to the >people of concord and dispute to the hypocrites; how is it that these >two have changed places? > >Thank you for your reply's. > >Salam. > > Agreement about loving the world above everything belongs, yes, to the worldly people. And yes, disagreement about how to best run to our Lord and serve him belongs to the people of religion. Cleaqrly blessings and mercy belong in the latter, although our disagreements sometimes form dissensions and divisions. As I've heard my master say: <>. So an answer to your question might be that the dissensions that you see are a test, and are only superficially negative -- especially at our level, which is the Station of Fumbling and Groping! :-) Blessings and Peace on the Prophet, his Family, and his Companions, Fouad Haddad Naqshbandi-Haqqani Foundation From tariqas-approval Tue Sep 19 15:26:16 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18923; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 01:26:19 -0400 Received: from homer09.u.washington.edu by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA18911; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 01:26:17 -0400 Received: by homer09.u.washington.edu (5.65+UW95.08/UW-NDC Revision: 2.33 ) id AA96571; Tue, 19 Sep 95 22:26:16 -0700 X-Sender: lilyan@homer09.u.washington.edu Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 22:26:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Lilyan Ila To: tariqasnet Subject: Re: From the back of the Niu Jie Mosque ... (fwd) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: asalaam-u-aleikum all Here is the response I got from Asifa who wrote the poem - I had been forwarding her the responses to the net. She seems to like us better than we like ourselves! Lily On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Kamal Al-Marayati wrote: > Wow! I'm impressed! > > Sounds like the Tariqas list is very active, informed, and enlightened! > Thanks for forwarding the stuff to me. I plan to subscribe, but I'm > trying to get a new e-mail account (my hubby's will discontinue soon) and > I thought I should wait till I have my new address. I plan to subscrib > ethen, though! > > Thanks again for giving me the feedback -- I'm so glad my thoughts > were able to touch others, and I had no idea how much! > > Talk again soon, > > Asifa > From tariqas-approval Tue Sep 19 16:40:20 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08988; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 02:40:24 -0400 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA08975; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 02:40:22 -0400 Received: from linda.teleport.com (bergner@linda.teleport.com [192.108.254.12]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA19876 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 23:40:22 -0700 From: Paul Bergner Message-Id: <199509200640.XAA19876@desiree.teleport.com> Subject: Re: Please answer! To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 23:40:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199509200148.UAA19520@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu> from "Omar Qureshi" at Sep 19, 95 08:48:50 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1061 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: > > Asalam o alaykum, > Dear brother/sisters, I have an important question that I > would like to have answered, or at least some insight on. The > question is: Why is it that while the worldly and the neglectful, and > even the misguided and hypocrites, cooperate without rivalry, the > people of religion(Islam), the religious scholars, and those who > follow the Sufi path, oppose each other in rivalry, although they are > the people of truth and concord? Agreement belongs in reality to the > people of concord and dispute to the hypocrites; how is it that these > two have changed places? > > Thank you for your reply's. > > Salam. > Walaikum salaam. Who says the worldly and neglectful cooperate without rivalry?! It may appear so on the surface for a while, but they slit each others throats with regularity. Gangsters cooperate in crime, but their fraternal treachery is widely renowned. And IMHO some of the "worldly" who cooperate in good works will end up being accepted as Muslims in the finality of things. Peace Mustafa From tariqas-approval Tue Sep 19 16:58:50 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13191; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 02:59:02 -0400 Received: from desiree.teleport.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA13163; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 02:58:53 -0400 Received: from linda.teleport.com (bergner@linda.teleport.com [192.108.254.12]) by desiree.teleport.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id XAA24606 for ; Tue, 19 Sep 1995 23:58:52 -0700 From: Paul Bergner Message-Id: <199509200658.XAA24606@desiree.teleport.com> Subject: Re: poem from a surprisng source To: tariqas@world.std.com Date: Tue, 19 Sep 1995 23:58:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <199509200147.SAA09371@desiree.teleport.com> from "Paul Bergner" at Sep 19, 95 06:47:15 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24beta] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Length: 1566 Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Hymn god loosens the know of suffering, tempers disease, physician who cures without ountment; Clear-sighted, he unclouds the darkening vision, open hs hidden nature to men. he will save whom he loves, though one walk in the underworld, free from the debt due fate as his heart, in wisdom, determines. To god are eyes, and ears as well; face guarding every way for one he loves; he hears the entreaty of any who cry to him, come in an instant to whoever summons him the distance no matter how far. he can lengthen a life or wreak havod within it. Offer wealth beyond fated measure to the one blessed by his love. He is a water spell; his name hovers high -- God's wings cpas the water of chaos No power at all to death when one calls his name. Winds of the deep contend, a withering storm veers nigh yest eased a man's end by remembering him: Spellbinding such speech at the moment of truth when man meets death face to face; And breezes are soft for who calls upon god he rescues those weary of wind and wave. for god is a god of mercy, mild in his dealing, fond; his children are all who bow to his lordship -- upreaised to the everpresence of god. Sufficient is he above any when housed in the human heart his name alone more potent than numberless dieties. he protects what is good in the world ready to take to himself any who falter behind; there are none to oppose him. >From the Leiden Hymns, translated into German, then English, from the original Egyptian heiroglyphics ca. 1200 BC Mustafa From tariqas-approval Wed Sep 20 04:18:45 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26834; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 08:18:50 -0400 Received: from severn.wash.inmet.com by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA26807; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 08:18:46 -0400 Received: from wayne.wash.inmet.com by severn.wash.inmet.com (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA04488; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 08:18:45 -0400 Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 08:18:45 -0400 From: dlb@severn.wash.inmet.com (David Barton) Message-Id: <9509201218.AA04488@severn.wash.inmet.com> Received: by wayne.wash.inmet.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA13897; Wed, 20 Sep 95 08:21:14 EDT To: tariqas@world.std.com Cc: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <199509200148.UAA19520@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu> (message from Omar Qureshi on Tue, 19 Sep 95 20:48:50 -0500) Subject: Re: Please answer! Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: Omar Qureshi writes: Dear brother/sisters, I have an important question that I would like to have answered, or at least some insight on. The question is: Why is it that while the worldly and the neglectful, and even the misguided and hypocrites, cooperate without rivalry, the people of religion(Islam), the religious scholars, and those who follow the Sufi path, oppose each other in rivalry, although they are the people of truth and concord? Agreement belongs in reality to the people of concord and dispute to the hypocrites; how is it that these two have changed places? I hope this will bot be seen as opposition; however, in my own experience, the worldly do not cooperate any better than the followers of Islam (or Christ or anyone else). When I have been tempted to compare "religious" people to worldly people, and find the religious ones lacking, I have found it (again, in myself and in my blindness) more a matter of my expectations of the religious people rather than an objective measure between the two. As to why they are not better than they are, my vocabulary leaps back to my Christian training rather than Sufism: we are *all* sinners, and we *all* fall short of the glory of Allah. Because the religious believe so strongly, and their beliefs are so central to their lives, their inevitable sin shows up in disputation about relatively trivial distinctios in doctrine and semantics. For myself, I try to simply duck and let such disputes roll off my back. All of these are my own reflections only, and no better than anyone else's (obviously). Dave Barton <*> dlb@wash.inmet.com )0( From tariqas-approval Wed Sep 20 11:34:55 1995 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA04075; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 10:36:07 -0400 Received: by world.std.com (5.65c/Spike-2.0) id AA03902; Wed, 20 Sep 1995 10:36:01 -0400 Date: Wed, 20 Sep 1995 10:35:55 +0059 (EDT) From: Steve H Rose Subject: Re: Please answer! To: tariqas@world.std.com In-Reply-To: <199509200148.UAA19520@everest.cclabs.missouri.edu> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Sender: tariqas-approval@world.std.com Precedence: bulk Reply-To: tariqas Status: RO X-Status: W'alaykum asalaam. On Tue, 19 Sep 1995, Omar Qureshi wrote: > Asalam o alaykum, > Dear brother/sisters, I have an important question that I > would like to have answered, or at least some insight on. The > question is: Why is it that while the worldly and the neglectful, and > even the misguided and hypocrites, cooperate without rivalry, the > people of religion(Islam), the religious scholars, and those who > follow the Sufi path, oppose each other in rivalry, although they are > the people of truth and concord? Agreement belongs in reality to the > people of concord and dispute to the hypocrites; how is it that these > two have changed places? > > Thank you for your reply's. > In my opinion, it is not the case that "the worldly and the neglectful, and even the misguided and hypocrites" cooperate more than "the people of religion(Islam), the religious scholars, and those who follow the Sufi path." These folks are at each other's throats at least as much as we are. There are four points I want to make: 1. When we are not involved in a group, we may imagine that "the grass is greener on the other side." However, when you learn more about groups (for example, Nazis during the 1930's), you find out that they were hardly cooperative -- except in murdering each other as well as milllions of innocent people. 2. While "they" do not cooperate more than "we" do, sadly, "we" don't always cooperate that much more than "they" do. Cooperation among "the people of religion(Islam), the religious scholars, and those who follow the Sufi path" is, unfortunately, much less than it could and should be. An example of a comparable group that cooperates much more effectively than we do is the world Buddhist community (although even in that group, things are almost certainly not as great as they seem to an outsider such as myself). 3. The divison between "them" and "us" may be false to a large extent. While we may think we are being wonderful people, actually most of us are being hypocrites much of the time. For example, I have always spent a lot of money on restaurants, while people are starving, and I claim to care about those people. Sheer hypocrisy. My one saving grace, Insh'Allah, is that I know i'm a hypocrite, and that, Insh'Allah, I may someday be given the strength to do something about it. 4. Lack of cooperation is usually based on ego/nafs getting in the way. Whether we focus on our nafs by thinking we are wonderful people, or worthless people, or belong to the greatest order in the UNIVERSE, or KNOW THE ONE TRUE WAY THAT WOULD BE BEST FOR EVERYBODY, or are addicted to alcohol/food/drugs/sex/money/power/work, or feel we are being humble by always signing our name on email messages in lower case, or feel that we can't just read tariqas postings without NEEDING to respond -- the result is increasing our nafs, and limiting our ability to work effectively as tools of God in cooperation with others. I plead guilty to several of the above -- what about you? (A response is NOT needed :-) Yours, habib rose